Heaven

[Berzerker]

I'm interested in how cultures describe and define Heaven, and since this belief is very old it might have its roots predating our expansion within and eventually out of Africa. Or maybe a Tower of Babel event did happen and the belief spread with a much more recent dispersal of people building the Tower.

No, "Heaven" is a very old story. This thread will examine that story in light of what we know about the cosmos. I'll post images of Heaven from around the world and sacred texts describing what Heaven is and how it was created.

First I'll start with rock art from Utah produced by the Fremont Indians, northern neighbors of the Anasazi.

What appears to be a hunting scene may depict the celestial battle that gave birth to Heaven. Several Indians attack the sheep from the right but one is targeting the horned deity dominating the upper row. This is a common theme in creation mythology, a hero deity slays a malevolent demon or dragon to create Heaven and Earth.

What is of interest is the line of sheep left and right of the horned deity. These were the planets before Heaven and Earth were created. From left to right: Mercury, Venus, Mars, proto-Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Pluto and Neptune.

Two appear out of order, but Pluto does get closer to the Sun than Neptune and the proto-Earth lies between Mars and Jupiter. Today that region is home to the asteroid belt. Thats 9 'planets', 10 if we include the Indian about to kill the horned deity in the middle of the solar system.

If Heaven and Earth were born of that battle from the remains of the horned deity, that leaves us with 10 planets and the Sun and Moon, neither of which appear on the panel that I can tell, albeit the Moon may be one of the combatants below the central figure.

Now the Incan Heaven...

The central image is Viracocha the creator - its an ellipse. Compare that to the Fremont panel, the Indian warrior stalking the horned deity will approach and kill it from beyond the 5 outer 'sheep'. The Incan image shows 5 stars separated from 4 more by the ellipse.

The creator in both images came from beyond the outer planets, carved up the planet between Mars and Jupiter, and returned to its loftiest of thrones (orbits). Well, technically the Incan image shows the entire ellipse between the 2 groups of stars.

This could lend weight to the theory the ellipse is the Milky Way anchored by the southern cross and another group of stars. But when esoteric knowledge is lost or confused what we can see may replace it. For example, researchers tell us the number 7 was sacred because there were 5 known planets and the Sun and Moon.

One problem is Uranus can be seen. Undoubtedly the visible objects became a focus of religion and ritual leading to astrology, but even that 'science' incorporated the sacred unseen elements in creation. If the Sun, Moon and 5 visible planets were central to creation mythology, why do we see a Zodiac based on 12? Ptolemy's 'cosmos' was 12 circles, etc...

So what about the Maya and Toltec?

9 levels with a temple to Queztalcoatl/Kukulcan on top. Notice the shadow on the staircase, each equinox the shadow ascends or descends the staircase - a serpent with 7 humps. According to Toltec cosmology 9 Lords of the Night rule the 'Underworld' while their creator ruled a Heaven comprised of 12 levels.

But this creator had an interesting attribute, he occupied 2 levels in Heaven - a Heaven comprised of 13 levels with 2 serving as God's abode.

Now look back at the Incan depiction of the heavens: Viracocha is an ellipse dividing 9 'stars' into groups of 4 and 5 with the Sun and Moon on either side. If we count the ellipse as a planet crossing the orbits of the outer planets it would occupy 2 levels in the heavens.

The Fremont panel depicts the solar system before creation, but it also shows their Creator and his allies approaching the solar system from below the planets. Their Creator came from beyond to kill the 6th planet. Where did that horned deity end up? It became the 7th planet, it became the Earth, pushed to a new orbit inside of Mars. And that brings us to Genesis, God created Heaven and Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th.

In my next post I'll show how the Sumerian creation myth matches up with the Fremont cosmology, the sequence of planets being born in the Enuma Elish - the forerunner of Genesis - shows the two are connected.

The short version is this, the Fremont horned deity is the Tiamat of the Enuma Elish (biblical Tehom). And according to the Enuma Elish, 3 planets formed between the Sun (Apsu) and proto-Earth (Tiamat) and 5 more beyond Tiamat. The Fremont and Sumerians placed their demon/dragon in the same place - between Mars and Jupiter.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So are you now claiming that ancient aliens gave the North American natives telescopes so they could see Pluto?

It wasn't discovered until 1930. That's a VERY long time after everyone lived in Africa.

 

[Modder_Mode]

 

[Senethro]

Sitchens sucks dude.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Uranus actually is visible to the naked eye (especially before light pollution) but its apparent position changes so slowly that the ancients didn't pick up on it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm interested in how cultures describe and define Heaven, and since this belief is very old it might have its roots predating our expansion within and eventually out of Africa. Or maybe a Tower of Babel event did happen and the belief spread with a much more recent dispersal of people building the Tower.

No, "Heaven" is a very old story. This thread will examine that story in light of what we know about the cosmos. I'll post images of Heaven from around the world and sacred texts describing what Heaven is and how it was created.

First I'll start with rock art from Utah produced by the Fremont Indians, northern neighbors of the Anasazi.

What appears to be a hunting scene may depict the celestial battle that gave birth to Heaven. Several Indians attack the sheep from the right but one is targeting the horned deity dominating the upper row. This is a common theme in creation mythology, a hero deity slays a malevolent demon or dragon to create Heaven and Earth.

It is a hunting scene showing a game drive towards waiting archers. The larger hunter is not pointing at the horned figure, but at the third or fourth goat from the right. there is nothing in the rock drawing that indicates the goats are anything but goats. Claiming that the top row are planets and ignoring all the others is pure fantasy. There are 23 other goats you have ignored. There are 3 other odd figures shown. Why aren't you explaining them?

 

[Ajidica]

Uranus actually is visible to the naked eye (especially before light pollution) but its apparent position changes so slowly that the ancients didn't pick up on it.

Technically, to see Uranus you just need a mirror.....

I'll show myself out.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It is a hunting scene showing a game drive towards waiting archers. The larger hunter is not pointing at the horned figure, but at the third or fourth goat from the right. there is nothing in the rock drawing that indicates the goats are anything but goats. Claiming that the top row are planets and ignoring all the others is pure fantasy. There are 23 other goats you have ignored. There are 3 other odd figures shown. Why aren't you explaining them?

I predict an epic goalpost move that says...

Actually, on second thought, I shouldn't give out any ideas. This thread is already sufficiently silly.

 

[Berzerker]

https://www.ancient.eu/article/225/enuma-elish---the-babylonian-epic-of-creation---fu/

1 When the heavens above did not exist,
2 And earth beneath had not come into being —
3 There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
4 And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
5 They had mingled their waters together
6 Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
7 When not one of the gods had been formed
8 Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,

Apsu (freshwater) is the primordial sun and Tiamat (saltwater) was the first planet. Interestingly enough, the Sun produces freshwater. There is however some confusion about a 3rd object. Mummu (Mercury) is described as Apsu's companion and some translations mention him in the opening lines. The reference to gods and destinies is about planets and their orbits.

9 The gods were created within them:
10 Lah(mu and Lah(amu were formed and came into being.

"Within them" has also been translated to mean between or amidst. These 2 gods were brother and sister in the Babylonian version and would eventually become Mars and Venus. Other than Tiamat and Lahamu the other planetary gods are male. This is important because it helps us locate Tiamat in the Sumerian solar system - beyond Mars.

11 While they grew and increased in stature
12 Anšar and Kišar, who excelled them, were created.
13 They prolonged their days, they multiplied their years.
14 Anu, their son, could rival his fathers.
15 Anu, the son, equalled Anšar,
16 And Anu begat Nudimmud, his own equal.
17 Nudimmud was the champion among his fathers:
18 Profoundly discerning, wise, of robust strength;
19 Very much stronger than his father's begetter, Anšar
20 He had no rival among the gods, his brothers.

Saturn and Jupiter followed by Uranus and Neptune. Now the following verses describe what ensued as planets migrated about.

21 The divine brothers came together,
22 Their clamour got loud, throwing Tia-mat into a turmoil.
23 They jarred the nerves of Tia-mat,
24 And by their dancing they spread alarm in Anduruna.
25 Apsû did not diminish their clamour,
26 And Tia-mat was silent when confronted with them.
27 Their conduct was displeasing to her,
28 Yet though their behaviour was not good, she wished to spare them.
29 Thereupon Apsû, the begetter of the great gods,
30 Called Mummu, his vizier, and addressed him,
31 "Vizier Mummu, who gratifies my pleasure,
32 Come, let us go to Tia-mat!"
33 They went and sat, facing Tia-mat,
34 As they conferred about the gods, their sons.
35 Apsû opened his mouth
36 And addressed Tia-mat
37 "Their behaviour has become displeasing to me
38 And I cannot rest in the day-time or sleep at night.
39 I will destroy and break up their way of life
40 That silence may reign and we may sleep."
41 When Tia-mat heard this
42 She raged and cried out to her spouse,
43 She cried in distress, fuming within herself,

The early solar system was chaotic and it is now believed by some researchers Jupiter migrated inward robbing Mars of material and disturbing the asteroids. No, it was Tiamat that robbed Mars of material. Jupiter's migration happened after the planets formed. The Enuma Elish has Tiamat forming before Venus and Mars and thats logical because the region between Mars and Jupiter was/is the solar system's 'frostline'.

As the solar wind pushes gas and dust outward water vapor becomes water and ice where we now find an asteroid belt, debris from massive collisions long ago. Rather than quote the epic of creation in its entirety I'll hit on a few verses more directly related to 'the heavens'.

Here's the description of Marduk arming for battle with Tiamat

102 The Son, the Sun-god, the Sun-god of the gods.'
103 He was clothed with the aura of the Ten Gods, so exalted was his strength,
104 The Fifty Dreads were loaded upon him.
105 Anu formed and gave birth to the four winds,
106 He delivered them to him, "My son, let them whirl!"
107 He formed dust and set a hurricane to drive it,
108 He made a wave to bring consternation on Tia-mat.
109 Tia-mat was confounded; day and night she was frantic.

Ten Gods... The Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Tiamat, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Marduk. And calling Marduk the Sun God of the gods shows today's researchers could be mistaking references to Marduk-like creator gods for solar deities. Anu is Uranus, a planet that now sits on its side. Imagine the force required to turn a planet that size on its side, maybe the same force that tore a few chunks out of it to form these 'winds'.

It was this interaction between Marduk and Anu that formed 4 moons, 4 whirling moons. I remember seeing a study a while back claiming the early Earth was struck by a handful of large objects around 4.0-4.1 bya shortly before life appeared.

148 She exalted Qingu, and magnified him among them.
149 The leadership of the army, the direction of the host,
150 The bearing of weapons, campaigning, the mobilization of conflict,
151 The chief executive power of battle, supreme command,
152 She entrusted to him and set him on a throne

Qingu was the Moon, the leader of Tiamat's forces.

1 Anšar opened his mouth
2 And addressed Kaka, his vizier,
3 "Vizier Kaka, who gratifies my pleasure,
4 I will send you to Lah(mu and Lah(amu.
5 You are skilled in making inquiry, learned in address.
6 Have the gods, my fathers, brought to my presence.
7 Let all the gods be brought,
8 Let them confer as they sit at table.
9 Let them eat grain, let them drink ale,
10 Let them decree the destiny for Marduk their avenger.
11 Go, be gone, Kaka, stand before them

As battle approached Saturn sent Pluto (Kaka) to the other gods with a message, the gravitational pull of the Sun and planets drew Marduk in for a collision with Tiamat.

1 He fashioned heavenly stations for the great gods,
2 And set up constellations, the patterns of the stars.
3 He appointed the year, marked off divisions,
4 And set up three stars each for the twelve months.
5 After he had organized the year,
6 He established the heavenly station of Ne-beru to fix the stars' intervals.

Line 6 is a mystery, Nibiru is the name given to the '12th planet' by Zecharia Sitchin. But one of the many peculiarities about our solar system is its tilt. Other than Mercury the planets dont orbit the Sun's equatorial plane. Something has dragged the planets into inclined orbits and the Earth is 7.25 degrees off and the Moon is a little more than 5 degrees off the Earth's equatorial plane. Something has disrupted our solar system.

136 In order to divide the lump by a clever scheme.
137 He split her into two like a dried fish:
138 One half of her he set up and stretched out as the heavens.

62 [(Thus) the half of her] he stretched out and made it firm as the earth.

That was what Marduk did to create Heaven, split Tiamat in two. And Heaven is described as 'firm' as the Earth. How does Genesis describe Heaven? The expanse, the firmament. The hammered bracelet. So we know what Heaven is like, its firm and stretched out - like an asteroid belt.

6 I will bring into being Lullû, whose name shall be 'man'.
7 I will create Lullû—man
8 On whom the toil of the gods will be laid that they may rest.

And there we are... The Adam to work in the Garden. Now just where did Adam come from? Africa, God took the man eastward to his Garden.

Anyway, this epic of creation was played out during the 12 day Akitu Festival marking the New year. Its a gold mine for people researching the solar system. Where do comets come from? It aint no Oort Cloud. This celestial battle released thousands of chunks of rock and dust surrounded by water.

Tiamat could have had an ocean a hundred miles deep or more, think of a much larger version of Europa. The Enuma Elish says Marduk caused Tiamat's forces to flee or be captured in his net (gravity). Even the guy who came up with the Oort Cloud theory said comets probably originated near Jupiter.

So look again at the Fremont rock art in the OP. The horned deity with 3 planets (sheep) to its left and 5 to its right matches Tiamat's location in the Enuma Elish.

People have tried to explain cylinder seal va 243 as a constellation, but it matches the description of planetary gods in the Enuma Elish - 10 planets and the Moon surrounding the Sun.

Compare the 7 dots to the 7 dots below the Earth in the lower left of the Incan depiction of the cosmos. This is why the number 7 is sacred, it represents the Earth. The Earth is the 7th planet, but it was formed by splitting the 6th planet.

Here's an interesting oddity

Handbag of the gods at LaVenta, Sumer, and Gobekli Tepe 11,500 years ago. I dont know about the 2nd pic.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

"Handbag of the gods"?



I'm no haute couture expert, but... seriously, WTH?

 

[Kyriakos]

So what about the Maya and Toltec?

9 levels with a temple to Queztalcoatl/Kukulcan on top. Notice the shadow on the staircase, each equinox the shadow ascends or descends the staircase - a serpent with 7 humps. According to Toltec cosmology 9 Lords of the Night rule the 'Underworld' while their creator ruled a Heaven comprised of 12 levels.

That temple looks very cool, and if the intention was to have the shadow looking like the serpent then good job.
The native american drawing, on the other hand, isn't that impressive... Many of those animals look like aardvarks

 

[Zkribbler]

What is of interest is the line of sheep left and right of the horned deity. These were the planets before Heaven and Earth were created. From left to right: Mercury, Venus, Mars, proto-Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Pluto and Neptune.

Two appear out of order, but Pluto does get closer to the Sun than Neptune and the proto-Earth lies between Mars and Jupiter. Today that region is home to the asteroid belt. That's 9 'planets', 10 if we include the Indian about to kill the horned deity in the middle of the solar system.

Pluto is not a planet but a dwarf planet, much like Ceres.

 

[Berzerker]

Now for a look at Norse cosmology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology

Long before the earth came to be, there existed the bright and flaming place called Muspell—a location so hot that foreigners may not enter it—and the foggy land of Niflheim. In Niflheim was a spring, Hvergelmir, and from it flows numerous rivers. Together these rivers, known as Élivágar, flowed further and further from their source. Eventually the poisonous substance within the flow came to harden and turn to ice. When the flow became entirely solid, a poisonous vapor rose from the ice and solidified into rime atop the solid river.

These thick ice layers grew, in time spreading across the void of Ginnungagap.[2] The northern region of Ginnungagap continued to fill with weight from the growing substance and its accompanying blowing vapor, yet the southern portion of Ginunngagap remained clear due to its proximity to the sparks and flames of Muspell. Between Niflheim and Muspell, ice and fire, was a placid location, "as mild as a windless sky". When the rime and the blowing heat met, the liquid melted and dropped, and this mixture formed the primordial being Ymir, the ancestor of all jötnar.

Ymir is the proto-Earth, the primordial being that was killed and carved up to create Heaven and Earth. Its interesting how the world before the Earth was created in Genesis is described as a void, a dark, water covered world. But here in the Norse version of creation it tells us where this void was, where the dark water covered world of Genesis formed. Where ice/rime met blowing heat. We have a more scientific explanation:

In astronomy or planetary science, the frost line, also known as the snow line or ice line, is the particular distance in the solar nebula from the central protostar where it is cold enough for volatile compounds such as water, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide to condense into solid ice grains. Different volatiles have different condensation temperatures at different partial pressures (thus different densities) in the protostar nebula, so their respective frost lines will differ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost_line_(astrophysics)

Thats where comets typically start building their tails as they approach the Sun.

Odin, Vili, and Vé took Ymir's corpse to the center of Ginunngagap and carved it. They made the earth from Ymir's flesh; the rocks from his bones; from his blood the sea, lakes, and oceans; and scree and stone from his molars, teeth, and remaining bone fragments. They surrounded the earth's lands with sea, forming a circle. From Ymir's skull they made the sky, which they placed above the earth in four points, each held by a dwarf (Norðri, Suðri, Austri and Vestri—Old Norse 'north, south, east, and west', respectively).[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology#cite_note-FAULKES-11-4
Earth was born in the center of Ginunngagap, the void. Where ice meets blowing heat, the solar system's frost line long ago. Maybe thats why Jupiter is so large, when Ymir/Tiamat was dismantled to form Heaven and Earth Jupiter was there to sweep up material.

Many cultures thought of the sky in terms of layers or levels in the form of simple steps or a mountain or a tree with branches. Yggdrasil was the Norse world tree and it was surrounded by 9 worlds. The Fremont, Toltec and Inca all placed an emphasis on 9 worlds, 'stars', Lords of the Night, celestial sheep.

 

[Berzerker]

Odin asks how this being begat children, as he did not know the company of a female jötunn, to which Vafþrúðnir responds that from beneath the ancient jötunn's armpits together a girl and a boy grew, and his feet together produced a six-headed jötunn.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir#cite_note-YMIRS-KIN-8

These 8 jotunn could be the planets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir#cite_note-YMIRS-KIN-8

 

[Joij21]

These 8 jotunn could be the planets

Just because there is eight of something, doesn't mean it's the planets.

Thats where comets typically start building their tails as they approach the Sun.

That was what Marduk did to create Heaven, split Tiamat in two. And Heaven is described as 'firm' as the Earth. How does Genesis describe Heaven? The expanse, the firmament. The hammered bracelet. So we know what Heaven is like, its firm and stretched out - like an asteroid belt.

Anyway, this epic of creation was played out during the 12 day Akitu Festival marking the New year. Its a gold mine for people researching the solar system. Where do comets come from? It aint no Oort Cloud. This celestial battle released thousands of chunks of rock and dust surrounded by water.

Please, PLEASE boy. The ancients would not have had any knowledge of such events of having taken place, the asteroid belt isn't even visible to the naked eye! Also no human was alive to see the early proto-planet that smashed into ours to form the Moon.

You have to remember, and I'm gonna be frank so here's a trigger warning. God and gods/spirits DON'T EXIST!!!!!! The only reason there are similarities between everyone's religion is because we are all descended from a single group of Homo Sapiens that evolved in Africa 300,000 years ago from Homo Heidelbergensis. But you have to remember that even then, as people spread out across the globe, people just kept on making up gods/spirits as they went along (hence why the religions aren't 100% alike). Also people over time would reject older gods and replace them with newer ones when they lost faith (hence monotheism). Then you also have to factor in all the holy wars/crusades/jihads where we humans slaughtered and genocided each other for having beliefs that "weren't acceptable" (which further muddies up the picture).

But at the end of the day, that first band of Homo Sapiens, they just made it all up as a coping mechanism to deal with the cruel harsh reality that is life. It's a COPE!!! Because when you die it all goes black and your consciousness is destroyed. Everything you ever worked for, remembered, and cherished in life is gone!!! As if it never happened! And when your loved one's are dead, they too are gone forever, and you will NEVER EVER EVER SEE THEM AGAIN!!! So our ancestors contemplated this reality and just couldn't deal with it (some snowflakes!). Instead they came up with spirits, gods, and religion to make up the fake make-believe idea that when you die you go to an afterlife or live another life. But it's all fake!! Like Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny! And when you grow up, you too will soon find out when your consciousness is slowly pried away from you and everything begins to slowly fade away to black. You will then have a sense of fear and trepidation as you realize that this is it, and before long you will begin losing everything, lose your sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell. Finally your memory of what is happening to you will be lost, then your sense of self, then your name, and your fear will then be lost to silence and oblivion!!!

 

[FriendlyFire]

But at the end of the day, that first band of Homo Sapiens, they just made it all up as a coping mechanism to deal with the cruel harsh reality that is life. It's a COPE!!!

Its not all bad, one can separate all the myth and fantasy and still have a solid system of Morales and principles to live by. It also provides a shared common social system which brings community together shared activities.

Its the fundamentalists that are the problem, the ones that insist that every single word is from God even as we have moved past issues like slavery, women suffrage.

 

[Joij21]

Its not all bad, one can separate all the myth and fantasy and still have a solid system of Morales and principles to live by.
Its the fundamentalists that are the problem, the ones that insist that every single word is from God even as we have moved past issues like slavery, women suffrage.

Yes, but you don't need religion for morality. And if you don't really need it for that, than what's the point? Just seems like a waste of time and commitment to me.

 

[Ajidica]

I'm partial to the Roadside Picnic sort of alien encounters.

Roadside Picnic is a work of fiction based on the aftermath of an extraterrestrial event called the Visitation that simultaneously took place in half a dozen separate locations around Earth over a two-day period. Neither the Visitors themselves nor their means of arrival or departure were ever seen by the local populations who lived inside the relatively small areas, each a few square kilometers, of the six Visitation Zones. The zones exhibit strange and dangerous phenomena not understood by humans, and contain artifacts with inexplicable, seemingly supernatural properties. The title of the novel derives from an analogy proposed by the character Dr. Valentine Pilman, who compares the Visitation to a picnic:

A picnic. Picture a forest, a country road, a meadow. Cars drive off the country road into the meadow, a group of young people get out carrying bottles, baskets of food, transistor radios, and cameras. They light fires, pitch tents, turn on the music. In the morning they leave. The animals, birds, and insects that watched in horror through the long night creep out from their hiding places. And what do they see? Old spark plugs and old filters strewn around... Rags, burnt-out bulbs, and a monkey wrench left behind... And of course, the usual mess—apple cores, candy wrappers, charred remains of the campfire, cans, bottles, somebody’s handkerchief, somebody’s penknife, torn newspapers, coins, faded flowers picked in another meadow.[2]

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Its not all bad, one can separate all the myth and fantasy and still have a solid system of Morales and principles to live by. It also provides a shared common social system which brings community together shared activities.

Its the fundamentalists that are the problem, the ones that insist that every single word is from God even as we have moved past issues like slavery, women suffrage.

It's not so solid as people tend to believe. Just look at the social norms that have cropped up during the past year.

Is it moral to refuse the covid vaccine? The only exception I would make is for people who cannot have it for verified medical reasons. Other people would disagree. And this controversy does not depend on religion for all the different arguments people make for or against.

 

[Moriarte]

Its the fundamentalists that are the problem, the ones that insist that every single word is from God even as we have moved past issues like slavery, women suffrage.

The problem is the pile of subjective idealistic nonsense, aka religion. The fact that some people interpret old testament, or what have you, literally makes them a consequence of that problem.