Hehehe vs ori

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Bootstoots

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Hehehe is appealing an infraction issued by ori for this post. The infraction was for inappropriate content - specifically, a link to a site that ori feels is inappropriately racist. Here is the original version of the post in question, before the link was removed.

Hehehe said:
Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.
It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.
Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.
Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
[Citation needed]
Mate, you're simply wrong on all accounts, at least when it comes to hispanic immigration

Here is the PM exchange between the two:

ori said:
Hehehe,

if you cannot post without linking to racist / supremacist sites / opinions, please refrain from posting. This warning comes with 2 points lasting 2 months and a 7 day ban on posting in this thread.

ori

--- begin automatic message ---

Your message (Handling illegal immigration) contains inappropriate content:
Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.

It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.

Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.


Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
[Citation needed]

Mate, you're simply wrong on all accounts, at least when it comes to hispanic immigration

Please do not discuss or post content of this nature on our site. This does not follow our rules. Your message may have been removed or altered.

Your account's access may be limited based on these actions. Please keep this in mind when posting or using our site.

Hehehe said:
Dear Ori

I would like to appeal your decision. I get the feeling that you've singled me out. Not for any kind of rule breaking, but simply because you'd like CFC to remain a hugbox. To this end, I would like to ask you as to which rule did I break? The discussion was very much related to immigration, as was my article. The article contained simply facts. How can facts be inappropriate? Is the very nature of reality going to be forbidden on CFC? Or are you going to take the route where everything that contradicts your worldview is automatically "racist / supremacist"? As I see it, closest rule I came to breaking was this one:
CFC rules said:
Posting a very negative topic or post about a certain group. E.g,. "Why are all (race, gender, ethnicity, political affiliation) stupid / fat / boring" etc.
Neither me nor the article claimed that all hispanics are like this. These are simply statistical averages, which are extremely relevant to the thread at question. With all due respect, I think you're abusing your power as a moderator. I think that you're simply censoring opinions simply because you do not like them.

Thank you for your consideration
-Hehehe

ori said:
really this game of yours of hiding behind "I did not say all .... are ...., I just said the statistical average is ..." is getting mighty old. And yes "facts" can be both false, misleading and trolling, especially if used in a cherry picked manner as the overtly racist site you linked to does (and as your links in the past did as well). This is not even touching the aspect of whether or not said "facts" are actually based on real data or not - merely the manner of cherr picking and depicting is sufficient to run afoul of the rules here which quite expressly state that you cannot denigrate a whole ethnicity (and don't try to argue, you only said the average and not all). I am not going to reverse this ruling but you are of course welcome to ask another supermoderator and/or an admin for an appeal of this decision in which case all supermods and admins except for myself will look into the matter.

As for the page you linked to: roughly half of the links used to "cite" "facts" link to other white supremacist sites or organisations, you may argue all you wish that this is conincedental to your attempt at discussing how non-whites are "more problematic" as your linked article states up top (and which obviously you mean in a totally non white-supremacist manner) - but there is exactly no one who would believe that. First off: if you wish to discuss in support of racist/white supremacist theories don't hide behin "I just want to discuss this" and secondly do it elsewhere.

Hehehe said:
Hiding behind facts? Sir, how misguided can you be? Facts are the basis for any conversation, so that is where conversations must start. If you really believe that I am wrong, can't you let that be established in an open conversation? If my facts are cherry-picked, then please, why not take the opportunity to blow me out of the water with your "real" facts? As for name-calling, you can call me all the names you want, but that doesn't make me wrong

At this point, both participants agreed that the conversation was going to make no further progress.

Hehehe sent this reasoning behind his appeal:

Hehehe said:
Why this infraction is wrong:

I think I laid my case down well enough in the second message that I sent Ori. It seems to me that Ori went out of his way to infract me, stretching both precedent and rules to infract me. Not only has that particular site been linked by others before, with not even a warning being given to them, also I do not believe that I broke the rules in linking it. I also do not think it is a coincidence that I got infracted for two points. I get the feeling that Ori has his finger on the trigger, ready to swing the ban hammer if any excuse presents itself. I'd like to think that I've always been polite, and I've never had a problem with any other moderator, which is why I'm appealing this.

I know I poked the beehive by discussing such a controversial topic, but perhaps I should explain why I did so, and why I think that it is important to discuss these kinds of topics. A long time ago, I made the decision that reality comes first. That I would not try to twist the facts to fit my own preconceived notions. This has given me a very open-minded attitude when it comes to ideas: I’m not afraid to discuss controversial topics. If I have reality on my side, then surely I need not be afraid of having my preconceived notions challenged. I can fend off criticism and rest comfortable in the fact that my ideas can withstand scrutiny. If my views do not survive being challenged, then perhaps I should consider if I’m wrong. In either case, I come off having learned a lot.

Immigration is a controversial topic. But banning discussion on it isn’t going to make it any less controversial. Real world is going to keep on turning even if CFC bans discussion on it.

The outcome I’m seeking:

I believe that no penalties are due. But should the good moderators of CFC disagree, I suggest that my infraction points be changed into a warning.
 
Think the question here is where the data comes from and what purpose does it serve. Did some checking and here is some info I think is important:

This is the "About" section of The Alternative Factor website and it claims:
Is this website “alt-right”?

The “alt-right” rose to prominence sometime between 2014 and 2016. While we did not start this website until 2016, both of us who run this site (Sean Last and Ryan Faulk) were writing about racial issues considerably before 2014. (Sean started in 2009 and Ryan started in 2007). We were doing this before the alt-right was a thing.

That being said, we exist within the online community of people which has become the alt-right, we know many people who run notable alt-right sites, and our ideology exists within the alt-right if one has a “big tent” conception of the movement.

Under the tables in the linked article, it cites that the data comes from an article by Camarota (2015) and links to the Center for Immigration Studies. CIS claims to be an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization. So I check it further and found this wiki article that says:
Critics have accused the CIS of extremist nativist views and for ties to white supremacy groups, which the CIS rejects.
 
Clearly not an appropriate article (or response to MagisterCultuum's post), regardless of the website it's hosted on. The introduction and conclusion make that perfectly clear, despite the attempted window dressing in between. Vote to uphold.
 
My vote is to uphold as well.

The site in the link is clearly inappropriate. Namely, it is a "race realist" website. The "alternative hypothesis" in the site's name alludes to race realism. In my attempts to understand the resurgence of white nationalist and supremacist beliefs in the last decade, I have read a number of sites of this nature and have some handle on this ideology. See the spoiler for details.

Spoiler Mini-essay on race realism :
In brief, "race realism" is an updated variety of scientific racism for the 21st century. The focus is on how white and Asian people have superior traits relative to people of other races. The most commonly cited claims are that the average IQ of whites and East Asians are considerably higher than those of black, Hispanic, Arab, and Native American people, and that the violent crime rates of whites and East Asians are far lower.

The more careful race realists do cite a number of real scientific studies along with crime statistics to back up their claims. Some actually get very detailed. For instance, they may look how the ratio of European to Native American and African ancestry among different Hispanic populations correlates with IQ/crime/etc for these groups. Another thing I've seen is to try to identify African ethnicities that have higher average IQ than the rest of the peoples of Africa.

They will claim to not actually be white supremacist or otherwise racist, citing several justifications. For one, that they are discussing average traits and not individual ones (e.g. they will not deny that Barack Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson are very intelligent). Another is that they think East Asians have slightly higher average IQs than whites. They also claim that the attempt to find subgroups of nonwhite/non-East Asian people who do have high IQ or low crime means that they are the ones who are truly concerned with the diversity of humanity. The phrase used for this is "human biodiversity", abbreviated HBD.

(aside: HBD and other labels are more popular than "race realism" among the more scientifically inclined part of the movement. A preference for "race realism" as a label is associated with outright white nationalists such as Jared Taylor. Many HBD types do not want to be associated with Taylor et al. and substantially disagree with him.)

If you go back and look at what the original scientific racists did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, you can see that the interests and claims are the same in every important way. Scientific racists did not deny the existence of particularly intelligent members of "inferior" races, nor did they deny that there were certain other races that also had high intelligence or other favorable attributes. The Nazi-Japanese alliance didn't come from nowhere, after all. Trying to differentiate races into different sub-races, based on measurable average characteristics, was one of the key interests of the scientific racists. A classic tool was phrenology, the measurement of skulls, to support differences in cognition between human groups.

To name just one example of what the consequences can be in practice, the Belgians used phrenology among other things to boost the notion that the Tutsi were genetically superior to the Hutu in Rwanda and Burundi and deserved to rule. This caused extreme ethnic polarization between them, leading the Rwandan Hutu to violently overthrow the Tutsi shortly after independence, leading Tutsi refugees in Uganda to form a powerful militia (Rwandan Patriotic Front, RPF) that invaded the country in 1990, leading to the Rwandan Civil War, leading to greatly increased Hutu extremism, leading to 800,000 people being hacked to death with machetes, leading to an enormous outflow of Hutu refugees including many of the killers into Zaire (now DR Congo) after the RPF won the war, leading the RPF and allies to invade Zaire and overthrow its government, leading to - by far - the deadliest war in the lifetimes of most of the people on the site. For further details ask Ajidica.


The overall narrative of race realism portrays white and East Asian people as genetically superior to all other races, albeit in a nuanced way that cites a variety of real facts to make the case. The page that Hehehe linked to is simply an application of the "alternative hypothesis" of race realism to Hispanic immigration.

I will make an important caveat, though. It is not inappropriate to argue that current levels of immigration are too high and should be reduced. It is also not inappropriate to back this argument up by saying that some immigrant groups have high crime rates, or values inconsistent with liberal democracy, or other such arguments. What is inappropriate is to claim - with or without supporting evidence - that some races are inherently superior to others, or to link to sites that are oriented around this belief.
 
We've got a unanimous 5-0 consensus here, and no new opinions for 2.5 weeks. Should we go ahead and publish this? I'll ask Hehehe if he wants his PM correspondence to be redacted or not.

edit: Actually, I had already asked him and he consented to publication.
 
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