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Hehehe vs ori

Discussion in 'Infraction Review' started by Bootstoots, Jun 27, 2018.

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  1. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Hehehe is appealing an infraction issued by ori for this post. The infraction was for inappropriate content - specifically, a link to a site that ori feels is inappropriately racist. Here is the original version of the post in question, before the link was removed.

    Here is the PM exchange between the two:

    At this point, both participants agreed that the conversation was going to make no further progress.

    Hehehe sent this reasoning behind his appeal:

     
  2. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Think the question here is where the data comes from and what purpose does it serve. Did some checking and here is some info I think is important:

    This is the "About" section of The Alternative Factor website and it claims:
    Under the tables in the linked article, it cites that the data comes from an article by Camarota (2015) and links to the Center for Immigration Studies. CIS claims to be an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization. So I check it further and found this wiki article that says:
     
  3. Rob (R8XFT)

    Rob (R8XFT) Ancient Briton Super Moderator

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    I agree with Ori - I didn't have to read much before I felt that it was racist propaganda. I uphold Ori's decision.
     
  4. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Clearly not an appropriate article (or response to MagisterCultuum's post), regardless of the website it's hosted on. The introduction and conclusion make that perfectly clear, despite the attempted window dressing in between. Vote to uphold.
     
  5. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Agree with Cami’s analysis. Vote to uphold.
     
  6. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  7. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    My vote is to uphold as well.

    The site in the link is clearly inappropriate. Namely, it is a "race realist" website. The "alternative hypothesis" in the site's name alludes to race realism. In my attempts to understand the resurgence of white nationalist and supremacist beliefs in the last decade, I have read a number of sites of this nature and have some handle on this ideology. See the spoiler for details.

    Spoiler Mini-essay on race realism :
    In brief, "race realism" is an updated variety of scientific racism for the 21st century. The focus is on how white and Asian people have superior traits relative to people of other races. The most commonly cited claims are that the average IQ of whites and East Asians are considerably higher than those of black, Hispanic, Arab, and Native American people, and that the violent crime rates of whites and East Asians are far lower.

    The more careful race realists do cite a number of real scientific studies along with crime statistics to back up their claims. Some actually get very detailed. For instance, they may look how the ratio of European to Native American and African ancestry among different Hispanic populations correlates with IQ/crime/etc for these groups. Another thing I've seen is to try to identify African ethnicities that have higher average IQ than the rest of the peoples of Africa.

    They will claim to not actually be white supremacist or otherwise racist, citing several justifications. For one, that they are discussing average traits and not individual ones (e.g. they will not deny that Barack Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson are very intelligent). Another is that they think East Asians have slightly higher average IQs than whites. They also claim that the attempt to find subgroups of nonwhite/non-East Asian people who do have high IQ or low crime means that they are the ones who are truly concerned with the diversity of humanity. The phrase used for this is "human biodiversity", abbreviated HBD.

    (aside: HBD and other labels are more popular than "race realism" among the more scientifically inclined part of the movement. A preference for "race realism" as a label is associated with outright white nationalists such as Jared Taylor. Many HBD types do not want to be associated with Taylor et al. and substantially disagree with him.)

    If you go back and look at what the original scientific racists did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, you can see that the interests and claims are the same in every important way. Scientific racists did not deny the existence of particularly intelligent members of "inferior" races, nor did they deny that there were certain other races that also had high intelligence or other favorable attributes. The Nazi-Japanese alliance didn't come from nowhere, after all. Trying to differentiate races into different sub-races, based on measurable average characteristics, was one of the key interests of the scientific racists. A classic tool was phrenology, the measurement of skulls, to support differences in cognition between human groups.

    To name just one example of what the consequences can be in practice, the Belgians used phrenology among other things to boost the notion that the Tutsi were genetically superior to the Hutu in Rwanda and Burundi and deserved to rule. This caused extreme ethnic polarization between them, leading the Rwandan Hutu to violently overthrow the Tutsi shortly after independence, leading Tutsi refugees in Uganda to form a powerful militia (Rwandan Patriotic Front, RPF) that invaded the country in 1990, leading to the Rwandan Civil War, leading to greatly increased Hutu extremism, leading to 800,000 people being hacked to death with machetes, leading to an enormous outflow of Hutu refugees including many of the killers into Zaire (now DR Congo) after the RPF won the war, leading the RPF and allies to invade Zaire and overthrow its government, leading to - by far - the deadliest war in the lifetimes of most of the people on the site. For further details ask Ajidica.


    The overall narrative of race realism portrays white and East Asian people as genetically superior to all other races, albeit in a nuanced way that cites a variety of real facts to make the case. The page that Hehehe linked to is simply an application of the "alternative hypothesis" of race realism to Hispanic immigration.

    I will make an important caveat, though. It is not inappropriate to argue that current levels of immigration are too high and should be reduced. It is also not inappropriate to back this argument up by saying that some immigrant groups have high crime rates, or values inconsistent with liberal democracy, or other such arguments. What is inappropriate is to claim - with or without supporting evidence - that some races are inherently superior to others, or to link to sites that are oriented around this belief.
     
  8. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    We've got a unanimous 5-0 consensus here, and no new opinions for 2.5 weeks. Should we go ahead and publish this? I'll ask Hehehe if he wants his PM correspondence to be redacted or not.

    edit: Actually, I had already asked him and he consented to publication.
     
  9. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Since there have been no new responses, I'll declare this upheld, 5-0.
     
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