Hehehe is appealing an infraction issued by ori for this post. The infraction was for inappropriate content - specifically, a link to a site that ori feels is inappropriately racist. Here is the original version of the post in question, before the link was removed.
Here is the PM exchange between the two:
At this point, both participants agreed that the conversation was going to make no further progress.
Hehehe sent this reasoning behind his appeal:
Hehehe said:[Citation needed]Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.
It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.
Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.
Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
Mate, you're simply wrong on all accounts, at least when it comes to hispanic immigration
Here is the PM exchange between the two:
ori said:Hehehe,
if you cannot post without linking to racist / supremacist sites / opinions, please refrain from posting. This warning comes with 2 points lasting 2 months and a 7 day ban on posting in this thread.
ori
--- begin automatic message ---
Your message (Handling illegal immigration) contains inappropriate content:
[Citation needed]Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.
It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.
Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.
Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
Mate, you're simply wrong on all accounts, at least when it comes to hispanic immigration
Please do not discuss or post content of this nature on our site. This does not follow our rules. Your message may have been removed or altered.
Your account's access may be limited based on these actions. Please keep this in mind when posting or using our site.
Hehehe said:Dear Ori
I would like to appeal your decision. I get the feeling that you've singled me out. Not for any kind of rule breaking, but simply because you'd like CFC to remain a hugbox. To this end, I would like to ask you as to which rule did I break? The discussion was very much related to immigration, as was my article. The article contained simply facts. How can facts be inappropriate? Is the very nature of reality going to be forbidden on CFC? Or are you going to take the route where everything that contradicts your worldview is automatically "racist / supremacist"? As I see it, closest rule I came to breaking was this one:
Neither me nor the article claimed that all hispanics are like this. These are simply statistical averages, which are extremely relevant to the thread at question. With all due respect, I think you're abusing your power as a moderator. I think that you're simply censoring opinions simply because you do not like them.CFC rules said:Posting a very negative topic or post about a certain group. E.g,. "Why are all (race, gender, ethnicity, political affiliation) stupid / fat / boring" etc.
Thank you for your consideration
-Hehehe
ori said:really this game of yours of hiding behind "I did not say all .... are ...., I just said the statistical average is ..." is getting mighty old. And yes "facts" can be both false, misleading and trolling, especially if used in a cherry picked manner as the overtly racist site you linked to does (and as your links in the past did as well). This is not even touching the aspect of whether or not said "facts" are actually based on real data or not - merely the manner of cherr picking and depicting is sufficient to run afoul of the rules here which quite expressly state that you cannot denigrate a whole ethnicity (and don't try to argue, you only said the average and not all). I am not going to reverse this ruling but you are of course welcome to ask another supermoderator and/or an admin for an appeal of this decision in which case all supermods and admins except for myself will look into the matter.
As for the page you linked to: roughly half of the links used to "cite" "facts" link to other white supremacist sites or organisations, you may argue all you wish that this is conincedental to your attempt at discussing how non-whites are "more problematic" as your linked article states up top (and which obviously you mean in a totally non white-supremacist manner) - but there is exactly no one who would believe that. First off: if you wish to discuss in support of racist/white supremacist theories don't hide behin "I just want to discuss this" and secondly do it elsewhere.
Hehehe said:Hiding behind facts? Sir, how misguided can you be? Facts are the basis for any conversation, so that is where conversations must start. If you really believe that I am wrong, can't you let that be established in an open conversation? If my facts are cherry-picked, then please, why not take the opportunity to blow me out of the water with your "real" facts? As for name-calling, you can call me all the names you want, but that doesn't make me wrong
At this point, both participants agreed that the conversation was going to make no further progress.
Hehehe sent this reasoning behind his appeal:
Hehehe said:Why this infraction is wrong:
I think I laid my case down well enough in the second message that I sent Ori. It seems to me that Ori went out of his way to infract me, stretching both precedent and rules to infract me. Not only has that particular site been linked by others before, with not even a warning being given to them, also I do not believe that I broke the rules in linking it. I also do not think it is a coincidence that I got infracted for two points. I get the feeling that Ori has his finger on the trigger, ready to swing the ban hammer if any excuse presents itself. I'd like to think that I've always been polite, and I've never had a problem with any other moderator, which is why I'm appealing this.
I know I poked the beehive by discussing such a controversial topic, but perhaps I should explain why I did so, and why I think that it is important to discuss these kinds of topics. A long time ago, I made the decision that reality comes first. That I would not try to twist the facts to fit my own preconceived notions. This has given me a very open-minded attitude when it comes to ideas: I’m not afraid to discuss controversial topics. If I have reality on my side, then surely I need not be afraid of having my preconceived notions challenged. I can fend off criticism and rest comfortable in the fact that my ideas can withstand scrutiny. If my views do not survive being challenged, then perhaps I should consider if I’m wrong. In either case, I come off having learned a lot.
Immigration is a controversial topic. But banning discussion on it isn’t going to make it any less controversial. Real world is going to keep on turning even if CFC bans discussion on it.
The outcome I’m seeking:
I believe that no penalties are due. But should the good moderators of CFC disagree, I suggest that my infraction points be changed into a warning.