[BTS] Help and advice with progress

[5tephen]

I agree with all of the above and I'm sorry my posts were too enthusiastic on the detail.

One fun thing to do might be an early war. Having looked at your map a bit, you have a nearby resource needed to build military units. You could aim to build a city with this in it's borders, improve the resource with your worker and build a road to 'connect' it to your cities (this is important or you can't use the resource) and start a war with a close neighbour.

Feel free to pick and choose our advice and keep experimenting to have fun . Don't wait for us if you're progressing and enjoying yourself but we'd love to hear how you got on later and see a first victory screen!

 

[Pangaea]

One fun thing to do might be an early war.

Hmmm. Fired up the save to have a look-around with the warrior.

Spoiler Oops :

Sorry? The city was just there...

 

[migalhone]

Hmmm. Fired up the save to have a look-around with the warrior.

Spoiler Oops :

Sorry? The city was just there...
View attachment 564434

Spoiler wait what? :

Did you conquer Spain with ONE warrior??

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

It IS Chieftain. You could probably win the game with warriors if none of the AI start with Hunting.

And I don't want the OP to think I'm implying that he should do that though, you wouldn't really learn anything about playing the game by doing that. This skill level neuters the AI so you have the chance to learn the mechanics of the game. I'd probably advise staying away from early war for that very reason-wars at this difficulty aren't difficult, so you won't learn a lot by rolling over the early AI. Heck, I might even suggest shooting for a space victory just to allow yourself the chance to see most of the game, the tech tree, etc. All the stuff you should learn from early games.

 

[Pangaea]

Spoiler wait what? :

Did you conquer Spain with ONE warrior??

@migalhone

Spoiler :

Aye On this difficulty the AIs start with the same as the human, so only a warrior (or scout). That warrior tends to explore, while they build another one in the capital (with some free hammers). So if you happen to come over an AI capital in the early turns, it's possible to raze the city by simply just walking into the empty city. That is what happened here. Also possible to win if there is one warrior, but then you need great luck.

This isn't very instructive either, because war is easy on Chieftain, but it might also be nice to see what you can do with only Axes and some chops. I ended up playing the game a bit, to turn 77 (around 1000BC).

Spoiler :

Unusual to play, because techs are so much cheaper than I'm used to, which means you can go deep in the tech tree pretty fast. It also allows to Oracle Civil Service, which is very nice.

What can be nice on settings like this, is to work on axe rushing, since it's not so risky (AI isn't likely to suddenly have 4 archers in their capital).





Early Alpha to backfill what little I could, then tech up to CoL while building the Oracle somewhere, and time it so that the Oracle and CoL (and Math) is done in the same turn. Then pick Civil Service. For killing England here, I hooked up the copper and chopped out some axes (easy with early math), with the odd whip. With Marble + Industrious, it's basically one chop and the Oracle is almost complete. So more important to time it with whatever techs you need.

For the rushing bit, it can be nice to build some roads to get to your target faster, and try to make sure it "fits" with river crossings. Here you can get to the western gold tile, which was just outside English culture, in 2 and 3 turns from the two non-capital cities. 6 axes (and two more on the move) turned out to the overkill, but I didn't expect there to be only one archer. Strange she didn't whip at least one more, but maybe she was building a worker or settler.

Seemed like a fine choice here to open with AH -> Pottery -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Masonry -> Writing -> Alphabet (or maybe Writing was earlier).

 

[lymond]

@guyyee should really play a shadow game on Noble level at least. Anything below does you no favors since human only gets bonuses so it does reflect well on what you will encounter later. Noble is "neutral" level..no bonuses either way...and from there only AI gets bonuses.

Not sure if guyee received any guidance on a shadow game, but besides Noble level, I recommend normal settings/speed, no huts/events, and standard Pangaea maps.

To emphasize what others have said, FOOD is the key to this game and should always be your first priority in terms of specials.

 

[Fish Man]

@guyyee should really play a shadow game on Noble level at least. Anything below does you no favors since human only gets bonuses so it does reflect well on what you will encounter later. Noble is "neutral" level..no bonuses either way...and from there only AI gets bonuses.

Not sure if guyee received any guidance on a shadow game, but besides Noble level, I recommend normal settings/speed, no huts/events, and standard Pangaea maps.

To emphasize what others have said, FOOD is the key to this game and should always be your first priority in terms of specials.

If I'm not mistaken then OP can save this as a WB file and then just start a game on the same map except on noble/prince? I think on those difficulties the starting techs/units are the same, so no fancy edits needed...

 

[lymond]

If I'm not mistaken then OP can save this as a WB file and then just start a game on the same map except on noble/prince? I think on those difficulties the starting techs/units are the same, so no fancy edits needed...

Sure, if his other settings aren't too wonky...I haven't looked at the game.

 

[Fish Man]

Sure, if his other settings aren't too wonky...I haven't looked at the game.

5 AIs instead of 6 for a standard size map...not sure how much of a difference that makes though.

 

[guyyee]

Hold fire on settling until a few more people have had a look. First city location is really important and some of the veterans here might give you advice to settle somewhere else. I would be tempted by SIP because I think the plains hill (PH) will have too many FPs and the marble involves moving towards coast but my advice on initial city placement isn't always great.

Which leader, civilization and map settings are you playing with?

Some general starting advice:

The 31 tiles are floodplains (FPs.) These are good for cottages as they already have but can also be used for farms where food is in short supply. You can and should settle on FPs at times and this may well be one of them. The disadvantage of settling on FPs are that, unlike settling on resources, you destroy the underlying tile and no longer get the 3.

When you settle a city, the city centre tile gets 211 - this tile is always worked by the city every turn. Except for FPs, if the tile you settle on has a different value of , or than this you get whichever is the greatest value. So if you settled on the PH or marble your city centre would have 221 - 1 extra doesn't sound much but it accumulates over the course of the game and gets your first worker out faster so settling on PH should always be considered.

I try and identify the most valuable initial tile and try not to move my settler so that it won't claim this tile in the eventual city - in this case the dry wheat (not that great a tile though tbh.)

The PH would only slow you down 1 turn as settler can move 2 tiles per turn.

Settling on river is also good but not vital as it gives a small health bonus for freshwater and if your second city is on the same river and the river tiles between the cities are within your cultural borders they get a trade route between them without you having to build a road for an instant boost.

Thank you! Noob mistake of not declaring the settings: Chieftain, American, Roosevelt, No huts, No random events. So on the get go, I have 3 techs: Fishing, Wheel and Agriculture.

Great advice.

Can you elaborate on this statement: "I try and identify the most valuable initial tile and try not to move my settler so that it won't claim this tile in the eventual city - in this case the dry wheat (not that great a tile though tbh.)"

Do you mean that if that tile is valuable if improved upon, you don't settle on it?

 

[guyyee]

@5tephen

To be fair, I opened his save just now and he's playing on Chieftain level. Sometimes with the wealth of knowledge we have on here, new players are overwhelmed. When starting off with the game, your goal is to expand to a lot of cities without crashing the economy. That's essentially it. Settle 10+ good cities with food, work improved tiles and get economic techs like Currency and CoL before 1 AD. And you'll win Noble let alone Chieftain running away.

If we spend a page talking about whether to settle in place or not, the poor man might get spooked and abandon the game.

I actually quite enjoyed the exposition and ideas behind why you do what you do in Civ4, as long as the explanation makes sense. I think they are important, I truly appreciate it.

 

[guyyee]

Several good observations and "right" questions. Good start Others have basically said the same I will, but let's focus on the quoted bit:

Food is King, as is often stated. Every city needs food. It needs it to grow (faster). When cities grow, they can work more tiles (like the marble), which means more income and/or research. Once you have slavery and are able to whip away population for instant production, good food sources mean the city can regrow faster, and you can repeat the process (but keep an eye on the "whip counter"). Therefore, you don't want to settle on top of wheat for instance, since it's the only food source in view. It's admittedly not a great food source, but does offer 4 1. +1 more once the tile is irrigated (automatically next to rivers, or later with chain farm irrigation with Civil Service). This is the first tile your initial worker should improve.

Marble is definitely nice for building wonders, but it can be kind of a trap early on, because you need the Masonry tech to build a quarry on top of the resource (this improves the tile yield, and crucially, gives you access to the marble). For a wonder like the Oracle, you really don't need the marble. For later and more expensive wonders, it's a great resource to have, but that will come in time. It's not necessary to rush to Masonry.

This start has a TON of food. Okay, only the one food resource in view (there may be more out of the visible area of course), but you also have a pile of flood plains. Each offers 3, which means that for each tile of them you work, the city's food production increases with 1 (each citizens always consumes 2 food). For a spot like this, you probably want to place cottages on most of the flood plains. You can do that once you have the Pottery technology.

But for a start, I think it's a good idea here to simply settle in place (SIP), start on a worker, and let him improve the wheat once he's out of the gates. After that, probably build another farm on one of the flood plains.

PS: Because flatland cities also irrigate water once you have the Civil Service technology, SIP or 1S will automatically irrigate the wheat after Civil Service, without the need for placing any more farms.

Thank you!

So I'm trying to understand the difference of farming the tile with Wheat vs the FP tile (1S of SIP city). Farming the Wheat tile will give me 2F+2F=4F. Farming the FP tile will give 3F+1F=4F. Both 4F with farms - so farming sequence is not a big deal here: I can do the FP first then Wheat tile or vice versa. Is that correct?

Next, the statement: "For a spot like this, you probably want to place cottages on most of the flood plains." I lost you there. Why is cottage good on flood plains? If I could reason it out myself: flood plains are already rich with food, so we can switch focus to commerce since cottage generate +1 Commerce - is that correct?

 

[guyyee]

Before I post the next turn, may I get your help to make sense of this metrics/numbers (this box appears when I hover over the name of my city:

 

[Pangaea]

Thank you!

So I'm trying to understand the difference of farming the tile with Wheat vs the FP tile (1S of SIP city). Farming the Wheat tile will give me 2F+2F=4F. Farming the FP tile will give 3F+1F=4F. Both 4F with farms - so farming sequence is not a big deal here: I can do the FP first then Wheat tile or vice versa. Is that correct?

Next, the statement: "For a spot like this, you probably want to place cottages on most of the flood plains." I lost you there. Why is cottage good on flood plains? If I could reason it out myself: flood plains are already rich with food, so we can switch focus to commerce since cottage generate +1 Commerce - is that correct?

The wheat tile has 4 1 for now, and 5 1 once it is irrigated (which would be the case if that wheat tile was riverside or next to a lake). Farmed floodplains does indeed offer 4 too, plus 1 Whether you value that commerce more than the hammer depends I suppose. But one crucial difference here in the early game, is that it takes 5 turns to farm the wheat, while a floodplain takes 7 turns. (A cottage takes 5 turns, while on normal tiles it's 4 turns). Turns matter a great deal in the early game, so even if you value the commerce as higher (the hammer is more valuable really, due to it improving production time for workers and settlers), it is still better to improve the wheat first.

People use different improvements on floodplains depending on what the city needs. If the city has little food from food specials (wheat, pig, corn, etc), it may be wise to farm at least one floodplain. I prefer to put cottages on them, especially in the capital (because once you get Civil Service and Bureaucracy, commerce (ie, cottages) in the capital gives more bang for your bucks. Cottages are nice on floodplains because even with a cottage the, the tile gives food surplus. Unlike for grassland tiles, this means the city will get more and more food surplus the more floodplains cottages it can work (+1 for each). That makes them excellent tiles to work. Because cottages take a lot of time to mature (70 turns from cottage -> town), it makes sense to start them early if viable, and work them more or less non-stop.

A plain (unimproved) floodplains is 3 1
A floodplains cottage is 3 2
A floodplains hamlet is 3 3 (work the cottage for 10 turns)
A floodplains village is 3 4 (work the cottage for 30 turns)
A floodplains town is 3 5 (work the cottage for 70 turns)

Hopefully that made sense

 

[Pangaea]

Before I post the next turn, may I get your help to make sense of this metrics/numbers (this box appears when I hover over the name of my city:

• Growth: The city must gather 22 food to grow from size 1 to size 2. Currently there is no food in the "bin". This food is acquired from the tiles the city works, such as the wheat.
• 3 + 1 / turn: This is the production in the city. Since you are producing a worker, both food and hammers go into the build (normally only hammers).
• Worker (20/60): This is what the city is currently producing, so a worker. There are 20 food+hammers (see above) into the build so far, and you need 60 to complete the worker. With 4 production per turn, it takes 10 more turns.
• The city produces 10 , 2 and 4 per turn. This is essentially what the Palace does, plus the few tiles you can work. Later these numbers will be much higher, when the city is larger and can work more tiles.
• Maintenance: This is a cost that is accrued throughout the empire, for all cities. It's added up (but rounded down), so once you get at least 1 maintenance, you will have to pay it. You never actually pay anything when you only have 1 city, but once you get more, you need to start paying maintenance. It's a mechanic to make sure you can't just spam cities willy nilly without crashing the economy. This is why cottages can be important in the early game, or other great commerce resources like gems, gold and silver.
• 10/100 This is the culture in the city. Currently culture/culture needed to expand borders. So once the city reaches 100 , the borders will expand.

PS: When building workers or settlers, the food goes into producing them instead of growing the city. That is why cities can't grow while building for instance your initial worker. When it is complete and you start building e.g. a warrior, food will increase in the city's food bar, and once it has gotten 22 food, it will grow to size 2. This is why Granaries are so important. It saves half the food. Which means that if this city had a granary from the beginning and it grew to size 2, it would have 11 food in the "bin" after it reached size 2. That means it is much faster to grow cities with a granary than without. This again increases the efficiency of whipping -- but that's a more complex topic that can wait until later.

 

[guyyee]

Progress:

1. Settled on Starting Position
2. Built worker
3. Researched tech in this order: Pottery, Mining and Bronze Working.
4. First Worker out: farming Wheat tile 1W
5. Warrior out exploring: encountered Isabella in the south just beyond the river and Victoria in the east also just beyond the river.
6. Right now not sure if rivers in south and east are connected.

Observation:

1. Lots of ice tile in the North - implication? Seems to me they are useless tiles - with no food, no hammer and no coins.
2. Two foreign civilizations within close proximity - so I guess I will have to take them out both at some point early in the game?
3. Because of point 1 and point 2, finding my next city will be a challenge.
4. Also obvious is the coastal nature of the map - how does this influence my game?

Plan:

1. Second city placement: I'm thinking of going southwest along the western coast OR northeast skirting by Victoria.
2. Alternative is start building combat units to capture one of the cities in Isabella and/or Victoria? Too premature?
3. I am not sure what to research next.

I have a feeling this is a critical watershed turn period - so I wanna make sure I learn to do the right things here.

 

[guyyee]

@guyyee should really play a shadow game on Noble level at least. Anything below does you no favors since human only gets bonuses so it does reflect well on what you will encounter later. Noble is "neutral" level..no bonuses either way...and from there only AI gets bonuses.

Not sure if guyee received any guidance on a shadow game, but besides Noble level, I recommend normal settings/speed, no huts/events, and standard Pangaea maps.

To emphasize what others have said, FOOD is the key to this game and should always be your first priority in terms of specials.

I see. I get your point. How do I change the difficulty level mid-game?

 

[Pangaea]

3. Researched tech in this order: Pottery, Mining and Bronze Working.

Presumably this means you don't have Animal Husbandry yet? It is needed to improve the Sheep. Like the Wheat, it's not a fantastic food tile, but it's still worth improving and working (the circles when you go into the city screen by double clicking on the city). I'd probably take that next. It also reveals Horses, which can be a nice defensive/offensive unit (Chariot). After that, you may opt for either Masonry (for the Marble) or Writing (allows you to open borders with AIs, which means you can send units into their territory without declaring war, to check out their land and what units they have in their cities).

Plan:

1. Second city placement: I'm thinking of going southwest along the western coast OR northeast skirting by Victoria.
2. Alternative is start building combat units to capture one of the cities in Isabella and/or Victoria? Too premature?
3. I am not sure what to research next.

I have a feeling this is a critical watershed turn period - so I wanna make sure I learn to do the right things here.

Excuse me if I'm mistaken here, but it kinda sounds like you want to place the next city very far from your current one. Don't be afraid to overlap cities. It's a good thing. Means for example that a city close to your capital can help grow cottages for that capital. Later you can switch the tiles. You're correct that the ice up north is worthless (at least for now) so you don't want to expand in that direction. Generally it's a good idea to expand towards neighbours, to secure land before they do. But don't go too much out of your way, because that will increase maintenance costs (not a big deal on Chieftain, but on higher difficulties it is).

Probably a good idea to send that warrior down the western coast, and then (depending on what you already revealed), turn east. You want to find good city locations nearby your capital. The floodplains area looks pretty great, so maybe you want the next city there. Depends a bit on what resource you find -- principally food.

Others can chime in too of course. I played this map a bit so will have a tainted view (and some blood on my hands)

 

[guyyee]

It IS Chieftain. You could probably win the game with warriors if none of the AI start with Hunting.

And I don't want the OP to think I'm implying that he should do that though, you wouldn't really learn anything about playing the game by doing that. This skill level neuters the AI so you have the chance to learn the mechanics of the game. I'd probably advise staying away from early war for that very reason-wars at this difficulty aren't difficult, so you won't learn a lot by rolling over the early AI. Heck, I might even suggest shooting for a space victory just to allow yourself the chance to see most of the game, the tech tree, etc. All the stuff you should learn from early games.

Ya, I agree. My priority is to learn the important concepts of the game. @lymond mentioned I should change the difficulty level to chieftain. Is this possible to do after the game has started?

 

[lymond]

Ya, I agree. My priority is to learn the important concepts of the game. @lymond mentioned I should change the difficulty level to chieftain. Is this possible to do after the game has started?

Technically yes, but it is best to do so at Turn 0..I'll explain more why. Using Worldbuilder you can create a WBsave. That save can then be played as a scenario or custom scenario (for options). If at any point other than Turn 0, a WBsave will wipe all "buckets"; i.e., food, gold, production, great person etc. At Turn 0 its a clean slate so no loss.

You've only played a few turns, so I see no reason not restart at Turn 0 using a WBsave and setting the difficulty to at least Noble. With guidance here, you will have no issue with that level while not having your game so skewed from "reality" by the human bonuses...ha.

Not sure how it was answered but did not read it all, but I will expound on the question about that "value" tile. As you well know by now food is so important. So the highest value resource is the strongest food special tile (though you may have multiple) like a corn or pigs. That tile becomes the focus of your settling decision. You might move your settler for one reason or another but you never move away from strong food. You will get a feel for this the more you play, as you might improve a start location by moving a settler a bit. (there are rare cases where you might almost entirely abandon the start location due to lack of food)

a few of my general noob pointers:

1) FOOD is KING
2) Food IS production
3) most important unit - worker
4) most important building - granary
5) other than granary all buildings are very situational and in many cases irrelevant
6) Most important/power civic - Slavery
7) early game is key...the success you have early leads to great success later
8) worker management is highly important - especially early. Do not underestimate the value of your workers and the actions they take. Each one matter/each turn matters.
9) Wonders are mainly a distraction for newer players. A few powerful ones in the game but mostly I would ignore wonders except in cases where experienced players guide you to the obvious.

As a general comment, Civ IV is a game of tremendous strategic depth. However, with some guidance here and practice of some basic concepts you should have no issue wining on Noble level or even Prince.