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Help Me Do Okay: The Ascent of Sitting Bull the Wise

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by The Oz-Man, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Do you plan to declare on Monty?
     
  2. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    the rax at this point of time was waste.
    I would build DS over chariots if you don't plan chariot rush

    the spot 2N or 2N1E above northern ivory catched my eyes. Then the cows in east.

    then there is that fish far away.

    with no commerce going on you need writing, not sure if after myst or before.
     
  3. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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  4. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    it is probably wise to prepare for DoW from Monty. Not sure if chariots are the good answer here.

    Problem is that up to now you met only 2 AI's, so if you wipe out Monty too soon you end basically isolated.

    Not sure what is the right answer here... half of me screams HBR with library approach, but Monty has resourceless metal UU.

    You have ultimate defense with TP archers and DS, so maybe some bait spot on hill close to Monty would work, with the option for trades with Pacal.
     
  5. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Talk about being out of practice! I haven't played a game in 3-4 months...picked this up and promptly went on strike for about 25 turns. It's monarch, so I found my way out of it and blew the AI away with superior production, but man, clearly the rust settles in when you don't play much!

    I think overall this is a pretty reasonable game - there's a lot of nice land and the AI around you is a little slow to expand. Not sure war is all that necessary since you have plenty of good land around your capital, but since both pacal and monty tend to like religion, eliminating monty might help for a nice friendly religious bloc with pacal. If you go that route, chariot rush needs to happen really fast, focus everything on it right away, and chop/whip out your chariots as fast as possible. Key to a successful chariot rush is SPEED, especially with Monty - have to hit him pre-jags.
     
  6. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Quick thought on that: how likely is Monty to get Jags before we can get enough Chariots going? At this point he isn't even running Slavery, which means he doesn't have BW (since I'm 99% sure the AI switches to Slavery immediately when they hit the tech). He's already wasted time teching Meditation, so he's going to probably be slower getting the worker techs going than I was, and I think I went pretty slowly at it.
     
  7. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    A MUCH stronger start! :goodjob: At least until you get to the point made by vranasm:

    To put it another way, building the barracks makes no sense here unless the plan is to rush Monty. Otherwise, you’d have been far better off building units for fog busting and to replace your early explorers.

    That said, with an annoyed Monty nearby, I think you’ve really only one choice: prepare for war. The key question IMHO is therefore what weapon to use. As vranasm notes, writing to speed up HBR would be fine here...and would allow you the opportunity to settle the jumbos in the interim for some early extra happy. Another option is jumbos / catas...and if you go writing via AH you can leverage philo to get an extra fast GS to bulb maths en route to construction for the catas. If going the latter route, there is a possibility of being rushed early by Monty – but you’re protective – and so not only get great archers (thanks to the totem pole too) but also cheap walls. I’m not sure it’s really necessary to find a hillside target as a result.

    If you’re comfortable using the whip and stacking whip weariness meanwhile, you could also consider using both your cities at this point to whip an army of chariots together ASAP. (This means you need to revolt into slavery – and then allow city #2 to grow to pop 3 onto the improved rice...at that point it builds the last worker you need and then builds / whips chariots just like the capital.) If going this way, bear in mind you need your workers to (i) chop a couple of forests to accelerate production (ii) camp and road to the ivory when your capital's borders pop and (iii) road to Monty – so your worker micro will need to be decent too. The other things re: tech to note if going this way are that (i) you’ll need hunting rather than mysticism next – to access the jumbos and raise your happy cap and (ii) post hunting, I’d likely start teching pottery or writing (likely the latter, you being philo) because increasing army maintenance will cause your slider to fall...and use the proceeds from taking Monty’s city / cities to finish teching.

    FWIW, whipping chariots would be my preferred option here (because I’m comfortable stacking whip weariness to happy cap and working mines otherwise) – but I think any of the approaches outlined above will work. If you do go this way though, bear in mind too that Monty may well have a second city when you rush – you may get lucky and find he has just his capital, but I wouldn’t count on it. As a result, you’d be advised to (i) scout out Monty for signs of city #2 and (ii) likely be willing to produce around a dozen or so chariots to take down two cities. Remember, he’s aggressive...so you’ll likely be facing promoted defenders, because he’ll likely build his cheap barracks.

    Look forward to seeing what you do. :)

    EDIT: One other thing re: a battle plan. If you do go chariots and find that Monty does have two cities, the best way to proceed IMHO would be to attack him simultaneously in both cities using two stacks. Stack one - your large and more experienced stack of promoted chariots - would head straight for the capital. Your second smaller stack, consisting largely of the unpromoted chariots whipped out of city #2 would head for Monty's second city. In short, I would advise against keeping your chariots together in one large stack - because that will only give Monty more time to whip defenders.
     
  8. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @lg

    forgot about the jumbos... yeah elepult war start to look for me very attractive as you put it...

    I see some hot heads are for chariot rush, I am no fun of it...

    maybe will do some turns if I find time today to see the date for elepults...
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I see no need to rush monty.
    You might be able to salvage a un-shrined holy city, but thats about it.
    And you have left your economy in ruin in the process.

    No, settle a hill-city close to monty, which he will throw his troops on.

    And if you are lucky, monty will attack someone else.

    Rush is something you do, when you are seriously cramped for space, or when you got someone who can't defend themseleves at all (Ghandi) as neightbour.
     
  10. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    @vranasm: In that case, call me a hot head! :lol: On a more serious note, FWIW, I’m all for the chariot rush here...but the key IMHO is that Oz is almost certainly going to need to be very comfortable stacking whip weariness to do it. Existing production won’t be sufficient IMHO to slow-build chariots in time.

    That said, the more efficient choice is likely the jumbos. There’s still decent land available to settle in the interim as you’ve noted, and who knows what else is in the - as yet unexplored – fog? And of course, using an early GS to bulb maths fits in nicely with Oz’s stated intention to leverage philo this game.

    If going jumbos, the one thing I’d suggest is that Oz needs to try and find another way to increase happiness if possible. That’s partly because more tiles = more commerce / beakers / hammers etc, but also because I think that, based on the land we can see, the map appears rather hammer poor. As a result, I think Oz is going to need to stack whip weariness in any case, even if jumbos get used, to build an army in a timely fashion.

    BTW: Just wondered vran....have you ever thought about adding a signature to your profile containing a link to your youtube vids? More advertising may encourage more hits. :)
     
  11. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    This is what I did - two southern hills. Didn't end up mattering in my game as i got him to friendly w/shared religion & gifts, but PRO archers/lbs on hills aren't getting dislodged easily.

    In terms of how fast to hit on a chariot rush - on normal speed, I've always targeted somewhere in the 60s in terms of turns. Enough time to hook up horse, road to the target a bit, and chop/whip about 12-ish chariots, with a few reinforcements to come after the initial wave if necessary. But I'm in agreement with vranasm that I don't see a need for a chariot rush in this game - other strategies (peaceful expansion, elepult) seem like they offer more bang for the buck here. This shouldn't be giving any spoiler info away, but as a comparison data point, i settled 10 cities peacefully, all pretty much in the land you've scouted to date.
     
  12. NoSuchName

    NoSuchName Chieftain

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    I think the jumbo city should be NW of it. You'll admittedly be off the coast, but in return get a rice that's hard to use otherwise, another green hill + ability to share the capital's sugar. I think it's a much stronger city long time, a production powerhouse. The other elephants can be fed by the fish, if necessary.
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The spot NW of the bananas close to the elephants also look nice.
    Need information of seafood out there though.
     
  14. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    Tried a run through from Oz’s round 1 save:

    Spoiler :
    Decided to try chariot rushing. Monty is dead on turn 61 / 1560 BC. Captured capital and very nice second city. Six turns from writing (via AH, so no pottery yet) @ 100% slider, -7 GPT and 181 gold in the bank to get there.
     
  15. ShengWuLien

    ShengWuLien Warlord

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    Count mine as another vote for elepults vs. Monty. Allows you to leverage PHI for an early GS to bulb Maths on the way to Construction and get extra value as you chop out an army.

    I have no idea on the dates, but would waiting a little longer for the rush allow Monty to shrine his holy city? What date would an AI generally do that?

    To grab the jumbos, there's a great city site 1S or 1SW of the cows to your north. Tons of production and will make a fine HE city. I would settle that, and maybe a city for the cows to your east, and rush from 4 cities.
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Monty rarely does.
     
  17. CreeDakota

    CreeDakota King

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    I agree with the message that a barracks this early was a mistake, more warriors is more useful right now as there are several areas that could very effectively be Fogbusted. The only exception if if you were definitly planning on an early war with monty which you were unsure of based on your write up.

    Being on the same continent with PAcal and Monty in different religions means you must choose sides. Both are pretty easy to make friends with; Pacal by Hereditary Rule and religion and Monty by mutual war, giving into demands, and religion. Choosing a side right now is unneeded but eventually religion will spread, open borders offers will come, worst enemies will be choosen and demands will be made. You must make this diplomatic desicion and be prepared for your answer before the AI forces you into one.

    As far as next options go. I like teching hunting and settling the Elephants to the north next, placing the city on either the plains forest or the Jungle on the river.

    EDIT: I would flop the builds in your two cities. Your worker is farming the rice but if that city builds a worker it wount grow onto it for awhile. In contrast the capital will grow onto an unimproved tile soon. If a Worker is built in capital instead of a unit then the mine on the grassland hill will likley be ready for the population growth.

    If Poverty Point builds a unit, either a warrior to fogbust or a chariot to scout depending on how many turns til farm is done and growth happens, you will be in the same place as your current plan but you will be working a farmed rice instead of a grassland forest or a lake tile. The only cost is your unit doesnt get your barracks exp which I think is a small price.

    Slavery. I think you can hold off a bit. Poverty point 2 pop whips nicely from size 5 to three working pigs/horse/rice continuously so it still has room to grow. And Cahokia has 4 grassland mines to soak up your food surplus and turn them into hammers allready. Perhaps a switch to slavery once settler for city 3 is built and moving to its site to minimize the impact of Anarchy.
     
  18. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Played the next round on a lark, but I've got an early class to teach tomorrow.

    The short version?

    Spoiler :
    Bad news for you Montezuma fans. ;)
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    :lol:
     
  20. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    for anyone interested i tried the elepult thing...

    got to construction 375 BC, attack date could be 1AD, ehm.

    Things I definitely did wrong - didn't bulb math, didn't beelined writing, but did this a bit on purpose with trying "honest attempt" not gonna exploit map knowledge.
    If you want some better date you really have to go for writing right after ah, mining, tw, to get going some science (i got stuck at 9 bpt after BW)

    that said it should still be comfortable win, but not gonna play it out.
     

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