History questions not worth their own thread IV

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Yet you still couldn't do much beyond occupy Niagara, and, as you said, smash our native allies. And according to some posters here, that's just a given. :rolleyes:

"You"? I wasn't aware I was a veteran of the War of 1812.

The Americans "couldn't do much" except accomplish their precise war objectives. Actually, if anything, the Madison administration vastly underestimated its own military power, since the "hold off the British expedition while conquering the Native confederacy" was rendered obsolete by the American victory at New Orleans. Unclear how much effect it would've had on the Ghent negotiations.
 
Well, no, the American objective was to annex Canada. The British objective was to create an Indian buffer state and, if possible, to take New Orleans, since they viewed the Louisiana Purchase as illegitimate. Everyone had their objectives fail, but they at least ended no worse (the US got their non-territory objectives, which had been rendered obsolete anyway by the end of the Napoleonic War, the British didn't lose territory).

It's been said that there were no winners of the war, but the Indians were certainly losers. It really was the last obstacle to American expansion east of the Mississippi.
 
It's a quasi-myth that the American objective in 1812 was to annex Canada. They did march a lot of troops to Niagara with the intent of taking it over, but it wasn't a golden apple for them, say, in the same way Constantinople was to the Ottomans. The Madison administration was just widening the berth of the U.S.'s borders, and believed that Canada was easy pickings. The massive surrender at Detroit on 16 August ultimately proved this to be a poor assumption.

Nevertheless, the northern campaigns had the ulterior objective of cutting off supplies to Tecumseh's Confederacy. The naval victory at Lake Erie on 10 September, causing the cut-off of support to Tecumseh in Ontario, is partially why the American victory on 5 October at the Thames was so decisive: it completely shattered the usefulness of the Natives as an ally to British Canada.

The point of this discussion is that the War of 1812 is cited as proof that America was just some backwater emerging power that couldn't hold a candle to its contemporary Great Powers like Britain or Prussia. This is mostly born from mischaracterizations of the actual military intentions of Madison during the war.
 
I think basically .vs. European army in the 1800's in a full scale war and not some off shoot one, the Americans would have gotten PWNT.
 
I think basically .vs. European army in the 1800's in a full scale war and not some off shoot one, the Americans would have gotten PWNT.

Are you aware that the American Revolutionary War was an intercontinental conflict, and probably the second or third largest in history up until that point, at that?
 
ah gosh darnit, please don't the derail the thread into a conversation about that, considering I said it off-hand and didn't put a substantial amount of thought into it.

In terms of intercontinental conflicts, it was the largest save for the Seven Years' War and the War of Spanish Succession; by that I mean, where the forces are _substantially_ spread out across multiple theaters. The only other pre-French Revolution wars this can be applied to are the Thirty Years' War, Nine Years' War and War of Austrian Succession.

Not only do I not have a lot of faith in my own remark being sniped by somebody willing to correct me, I'm also willing to bet that I myself will change my mind on it before I go to bed tonight.
 
In terms of intercontinental conflicts, it was the largest save for the Seven Years' War and the War of Spanish Succession;

Hell, no. Already the Crusades was an intercontinental conflict - fought on three continents (Europe, Asia, Africa).

Greco-Persian wars were also intercontinental conflicts, fought on two continents - Europe and Asia.

Etc., etc., etc.

The only other pre-French Revolution wars this can be applied to are the Thirty Years' War, Nine Years' War and War of Austrian Succession.

The Second Northern War of 1655 - 1660 was also an intercontinental conflict.

Swedish colony in America (New Sweden) was conquered during that conflict.
 
Hell, no. Already the Crusades was an intercontinental conflict - fought on three continents (Europe, Asia, Africa).
Yet the Crusades were not centrally organized and directed military campaigns.
Rather important point there.
 
Neither "the Crusades" nor "the Greco-Persian Wars" were individual conflicts.

The Second Northern War of 1655 - 1660 was also an intercontinental conflict.

Swedish colony in America (New Sweden) was conquered during that conflict.

granted

It was also minuscule compared to the American Revolutionary War
 
Yet the Crusades were not centrally organized and directed military campaigns.

Of course they were - even more than wars mentioned above (such as the 7 Years War).

They were centrally organized and directed by the Pope.

It was also minuscule compared to the American Revolutionary War

Minuscule where? In Europe or in America? Certainly not in Europe.

On the other hand the American Revolutionary War was minuscule in Europe.

Neither "the Crusades" nor "the Greco-Persian Wars" were individual conflicts.

Yes both were series of conflicts. But they included such individual conflicts which were intercontinental.

For example Third Crusade captured Lisbon and then invaded the Holy Land- so they fought on 2 continents (Europe and Asia).

And Fourth Crusade fought in Africa (attack against Tunis) and then in the Holy Land - once again 2 continents (Africa and Asia).
 
Of course they were - even more than wars mentioned above (such as the 7 Years War).

They were centrally organized and directed by the Pope.

hahahahah oh gosh I almost choked on my lunch there
 
Minuscule where? In Europe or in America? Certainly not in Europe.

On the other hand the American Revolutionary War was minuscule in Europe.

In North America, the Second Northern War resulted in the annexation of a sparsely populated tiny colony.

There were huge oceanic naval battles during the American Revolutionary War, particularly over Gibraltar and the Caribbean.

Yes both were series of conflicts. But they included such individual conflicts which were intercontinental.

For example Third Crusade captured Lisbon and then invaded the Holy Land- so they fought on 2 continents (Europe and Asia).

What? You think Richard I of England's campaigns in the Levant (1189–1192) and the Portuguese Reconquista (event in question happened in 1147) were both the same war, which was centrally directed by the Pope thousands of miles away from both conflicts?
 
In North America, the Second Northern War resulted in the annexation of a sparsely populated tiny colony.

And in Europe it was fought on a much larger scale than during the ARW.

There were huge oceanic naval battles during the American Revolutionary War, particularly over Gibraltar and the Caribbean.

Oceans are not continents, right. And you called it "intercontinental".

What? You think Richard I of England's campaigns in the Levant (1189–1192) and the Portuguese Reconquista (event in question happened in 1147) were both the same war, which was centrally directed by the Pope thousands of miles away from both conflicts?

Yes it was a typo - that was during the Second Crusade, not the Third Crusade.

And Crusaders participated in the siege of Lisbon - later the same crusaders sailed to Near East and Egypt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lisbon

Wikipedia article describes the territorial scope of the Second Crusade as follows (these areas are parts of 3 continents):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade

wiki said:
Location - Iberia, Near East (Anatolia, Levant, Palestine), Egypt

Regarding the campaigns in the Levant of 1189 - 1192 - Richard I of England was not the only major European commander involved.

Once again you present biased Anglo-Centric point of view on history.
 
Regarding the campaigns in the Levant of 1189 - 1192 - Richard I of England was not the only major European commander involved.

Once again you present biased Anglo-Centric point of view on history.
Richard was French.
 
'Inter'continental; it means between, or on, multiple continents. There were significant naval battles in the American Revolution happening in the Caribbean, the Pacific Ocean, and the Mediterranean, in addition to along the American coast. It was a war where the battles that happened in every theater had a significant influence on the final outcome. The colonial battles during the Second Northern War most definitely did not have the same sort of impact.

Just because some of the troops in the Second Crusade eventually moved to another place for another war, doesn't mean it's altogether a singular conflict; anymore than it makes sense to say that World War I and World War II were the same war because Winston Churchill and Jan Smuts were commanders in both. The Almoravids that controlled Lisbon had almost nothing to do with the Syrian Burids or the other factions in the Levant.

When did I say I was going to give a comprehensive list of every military commander in the Crusades? I mentioned Richard I because he was the most important one for the longest period of time during the Third Crusade in the Levant. How is that anglocentric? Actually, how is anything I have said anglocentric? You accused me of the same thing when I was severely critical of Napoleon a while back. Is that a standard denigration you use when people argue against your opinions?

Boy this argument is dumb.
 
The defeat of the forces of Tecumseh and the "Prophet" is the main reason I think that the 1812 war was an "advantageous" standstill for the Americans. By comparison, the British accomplished zero positive goals in the war, only succeeding negatively (the failure of the American offensive in Canada). The partial success (and ultimate failure) of the extended raid on the Chesapeake says nothing about the UK's ability to "one-nation" anybody at all; the utter failure of the general offensive that was signally unable to push past Plattsburgh, New Orleans, or Baltimore says a great deal more.

You kinda have to laugh at our resident North African's halfhearted attempts to pay us back in kind, since he clearly doesn't even have a most basic understanding of the circumstances of the ACW (a single colonel, later brevet brigadier general, is totally representative of the officer corps on either side of the conflict, yeah) or the Plains Wars (one defeat = all the conflicts, clearly).
Were all civil wars during the 19th century as organized as the American one?
Look at China. I'm not totally sure what you mean by "as organized", but the Taiping war and the series of rebellions against Qing rule across the empire were fairly messy.
I wasn't going to agree with Dachs (this question has to involve the unanswerable hypothetical scenario where both sides have to deal with the same issues of distance), but I'm sympathetic to an early date. In 1812, our army was disfunctional, but that has to do with many reasons (mostly a crappy officer corp and an over-reliance on militia). Also, budget cutbacks during the Jefferson administration prevented our navy from being first class (if we had several Ship of the Lines, our better equipped, better manned vessels could probably last very well one on one against any British vessel).
If the US Army was in some ways dysfunctional in the earlier wars, so too were its enemies. If we are comparing to European enemies, we can't simply take account of the brilliant successes of, for instance, the British at Plassey and the Plains of Abraham, or the Prussians at Leuthen and Roßbach. British commanders and troops committed plenty of stupid boners throughout the same time period (the early rebellion was particularly full of these, but Minden was a victory achieved in spite of certain British commanders, not because of them), and Friedrich's supposedly invincible armies got beat up plenty, for instance at Zorndorf and Maxen.

So, sure, the Americans made plenty of mistakes and had some institutional holes. Absolutely. But so did everybody else. That's kind of the whole point.

I think that comparing the American and British militaries, at the very least, on the basis of them attempting to accomplish the very missions they were supposed to accomplish, in wars that pitted them against each other, is a fairly reasonable thing to do.

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It'd be nice if my comment about the US Army in 1865 had been met with more than just "ehhh I doubt it"s and "but but but the war wasn't fought against a LEGITIMATE enemy"s (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). How, exactly, was the Confederate army any less of a serious foe than the French or Austrian armies? Surely it was at least superior to the extemporized Chinese forces that so badly mauled the Anglo-French forces that attacked the Dagu forts in 1859, or superior to the minuscule, badly supplied, badly equipped, badly trained, and badly officered Danish army that fought German federal forces in 1864?
 
There were significant naval battles in the American Revolution happening in the Caribbean, the Pacific Ocean, and the Mediterranean, in addition to along the American coast. It was a war where the battles that happened in every theater had a significant influence on the final outcome. The colonial battles during the Second Northern War most definitely did not have the same sort of impact.
Could you elaborate on the Revolutionary War naval battles in the Pacific Ocean?
 
Could you elaborate on the Revolutionary War naval battles in the Pacific Ocean?

There were several naval battles in the East Indies (the biggest of which was the Battle of Trincomalee, 25 August 1782 outside of Sri Lanka), as well as contemporaneous battles between the British East India Company and the French East India Company. Wikipedia if you're interested.
 
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