History questions not worth their own thread IV

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There's both a side that explains the jokes and allusions in xkcd in great detail and one that complains about how the comic spells out its jokes too much? Oh my, the internet.
Okay, I'm going to use this to springboard into a question that isn't quite history related but what the hell.

It seems to me as though misspelling "[web]site" as "side" is a fairly peculiarly German thing. Out of a reasonable sample size of the decade-odd that I've been using the Internet, almost all of the people who've done that natively speak German. Why is that the case?
 
Pronouncation of 'site' has a rather soft t when compared to 'Punkt' (point), where the t is harsh.
So the german brain fails here.

Some indonesian cris knifes were cut from meteorit iron. One can see the crystallin structures under microscope. Their quality was apparently inferior to forged weapons.

Swords weren't actually that common- the spear was always the primary weapon.

They checked a sword, so I wrote about a sword. I talk about quality-smithing not magic. :huh:

Not one bit
The impact exists, the tribe exist, the weapons exist. contemporary autors mention exeptional combat results for noriker. Trade and bond with rome. romes achivements. All the smithing-knowledge suddenly gone forewer.
Conclusion: They were just lucky to sit on perfekt ore.

Example: damaskus-blades are well known quality blades for a period, than gone forever.
Possible: they imported ore from india. the mine was finaly exausted. no damaskus-blades anymore.
 
But then again, the prisoners didn't get thin by staying in Serb lands for no reason is why I always laugh at the claims.

trust me , ı know people who know people and the last named would still find the camps and stuff inside and the challenge presented unfunny . Luckily the State TV triviliazed it all with how a rape camp was taken out or so . Can't tell how , ı didn't watch it all .
 
Okay, I'm going to use this to springboard into a question that isn't quite history related but what the hell.

It seems to me as though misspelling "[web]site" as "side" is a fairly peculiarly German thing. Out of a reasonable sample size of the decade-odd that I've been using the Internet, almost all of the people who've done that natively speak German. Why is that the case?
Oh, that's a very interesting question because I can think of two possible answers.

1) German doesn't make a difference between voiced and voiceless plosives at the end of a word, i.e. t and d, p and b, c/k and g all sound like t, p, k at the end of a word. So German speakers often tend to not see a difference between words like site and side, therefore confusing their spellings.

2) Websites are often referred to as pages, such as in the synonym web page or home page, which doesn't mean exactly the same thing, but is often misappropriated for the same meaning. Page is "Seite" in German, so it's likely that people see "site" as a false friend to "Seite" due to their similar pronounciation (There even is the half-anglicism "Webseite" which sounds like it is the translation of "website" but actually means "web page", which most people don't seem to be aware of). Things go full circle in that "Seite" can also mean "side". It's a fascinating coincidence actually.
 
Why do in a lot of wars you see where a nation has a "better" army and generals and they still lose the war. Why is that?
 
1) define "better" for example, a small army may have the best individual soldiers, but get beaten by a larger force or they may have the very best generals but they have a lot of weak generals as well
2) politics is another factor, in Vietnam domestic politics was the greatest weakness of the US

Usually it is just people spewing stuff out of their ass.
 
It brings to mind certain battles in the American Civil War, which the Union won despite loosing several times more soldiers than the Confederate armies was able to field in the first place.
 
Why do in a lot of wars you see where a nation has a "better" army and generals and they still lose the war. Why is that?

Well if they loose they clearly dont have a better army and/or generals.

It brings to mind certain battles in the American Civil War, which the Union won despite loosing several times more soldiers than the Confederate armies was able to field in the first place.

Victory in any sort of warfare is fundamentally, as Nathan Bedford Forrest put it, about getting there fastest with the mostest. It's about having more firepower in contested territory than the enemy - not necessarily about being the stronger force. All the firepower in the world doesn't make a difference if it's not being used effectively; when your section is taken by surprise and ambushed by an enemy platoon it doesn't matter that there are ten of your men for every one of the enemy's in theatre, because there are ten of theirs to every one of yours right now. Similarly, if the left wing of the army is under attack, it doesn't matter how strong the rest of it is; it'll crumble if the enemy is hitting it with more power than it can withstand. Indeed, during the American Civil War - chiefly in battles that the Union lost, such as Chancellorsville - we actually had a situation where a stronger force could be beaten by a weaker one because the weaker force had local superiority wherever it fought.
 
2) politics is another factor, in Vietnam domestic politics was the greatest weakness of the US

Usually it is just people spewing stuff out of their ass.

Indeed. Vietnam was lost due to a conscious policy not to invade North Vietnam; seeing the death toll for trying to defend South Vietnam (and losing it still), that was the second wisest decision. (The wisest ofcourse being not to support the corrupt South Vietnamese government in the first place, but hey there were Commies involved, so what can you do?* Instead of containing the war to Vietnam US policy acctually managed to extend the war to Laos and Cambojda, with equally predictable disastrous results for those countries as well.)

*Fun fact: Ho Chi Minh actually wanted the US to support his independence movement, but got blown off; it was only after this that he turned Commy. So in the end the US produced their own Communist threat in Vietnam.
 
Why do in a lot of wars you see where a nation has a "better" army and generals and they still lose the war. Why is that?

Well if they loose they clearly dont have a better army and/or generals.
Like madviking said, luck has an awful lot to do with it. Warfare is one of the most contingent human activities, and relatively minor occurrences that have little to do with the overall quality of an army can have massive rippling consequences.

In addition, in almost all cases, the alleged superiority of one army over another is overstated dramatically. Certain armies are usually incrementally better, in institutional terms, than other armies in doing certain things. That's generally balanced out by the other army having its own advantages. Rarely, if ever, will you see a fighting force that is extremely good at ALL THE THINGS, and has every single possible advantage over an enemy force.

So in that sense, warfare is about maximizing your army's own advantages and minimizing the opportunities for the enemy to bring theirs into play. But, again, in most cases, those advantages are very incremental. The Spanish armies of Fernando VII that tried to reconquer the New World from the rebellions of Sucre, Bolivar, and the rest weren't that much better trained and armed than their opponents even at their best, and frequently they were not at their best. Russia's forces rarely had That Much of an advantage over Ottoman ones in terms of leadership, discipline, and technology. That sort of thing.

It's fairly rare to see a situation like that of the Roman military against the so-called "barbarians" on its frontiers, or the Spanish armies against the indigenous population of the Americas, in which the advantages held by the one side are so massive as to render the other side's victory highly unlikely, sometimes to the point of near impossibility. Even in those encounters, though, the role of the commander, of tactical maneuver, of nonbattle military operations, retained enough force and meaning to permit either side to potentially win the battle. Supposedly, the Triple Alliance forces that confronted Cortes at Otumba could have blockaded the Spanish and forced them to surrender quite handily instead of risking everything on a set-piece battle that went the wrong way. (Guy Halsall has described battle as being, in many contexts, a lottery, regardless of the strength of certain armies at certain things. It's not an uncommon sentiment, but I like the way he puts it. In addition to being a historian, he's also a pretty good tabletop wargamer, so he's thought about this sort of thing an awful lot.) And Roman forces sometimes did lose to "barbarians", although it was a fairly rare occurrence.

So, to answer your question, "better" doesn't usually mean what you think it means. And even armies that are institutionally superior in some respects cannot overcome other factors, especially ones related to luck, in all circumstances. It's not like a video game, say Advance Wars, where certain armies (e.g. Colin, Kanbei) can take advantage of super-cheese institutional advantages that overwhelm anything any other army can bring to bear.
It brings to mind certain battles in the American Civil War, which the Union won despite loosing several times more soldiers than the Confederate armies was able to field in the first place.
This is a massive exaggeration.
Victory in any sort of warfare is fundamentally, as Nathan Bedford Forrest put it, about getting there fastest with the mostest. It's about having more firepower in contested territory than the enemy - not necessarily about being the stronger force.
This is mostly right.

Premodern - i.e. "before the Second World War or so", and arguably even after that - warfare did not revolve around killing large numbers of enemy troops. Obviously, an army wanted to do this as much as was possible and non-risky. But killing enemy forces was not the best way to win a battle: forcing them to retreat was. Most battles in history don't feature a casualty rate higher than thirty percent on either side, and thirty percent casualties are usually considered to leave a given formation gutted. That means the majority of soldiers, even in the worst defeats, retreat and survive the battle. Armies wanted to force the other side to retreat and yield them their immediate objectives, not to slaughter every enemy soldier - especially since killing enemy troops generally means putting your own men at risk.

Before the late nineteenth century or so, though, this usually did go hand in hand with high casualties. Until the introduction of modern breech-loading and bolt action firearms, the mere act of fighting itself was enough to occupy a given soldier's attention. Whether the soldier was wielding a spear and shield in close combat or firing and reloading a smoothbore in line formation, he was generally so occupied with what he was doing at the time that he didn't really have much situational awareness, or time to think about what, exactly, was going on. This started to change as the battlefield got "emptier" and the act of fighting became physically less absorbing. Soldiers had the opportunity to think about was going on during the fighting, frequently spent time alone or in very small groups instead of large formations, and in general had to deal with more psychological pressure than did their earlier peers.

At the same time, of course, battles opened up massively in terms of scale, both geographically and numerically. In addition, warfare became a more continuous exercise, arguably starting with the Overland Campaign in the American Civil War. (A notion that was developed pretty well in Gordon Rhea's books on the campaign, especially To the North Anna.) Before, the overwhelming amount of military operations were short, sharp, and vicious, but not prolonged. A Cannae or a Malplaquet would see thousands dead on the field in a few hours, but relative inactivity for weeks and months on either side. (By comparison, even the Federal assault at Cold Harbor, in which eight thousand men allegedly died within half an hour, would be peanuts. Of course, those figures were made up by Humphreys to discredit Grant...) In the Overland Campaign, though, the Federal armies continued to push, fight, and march after basically every battle. The act of battle itself became less important than the sort of maneuvers it allowed the army to undertake leading to the next engagement. This wasn't true operational thinking, because Grant and Meade still considered battle to be the way in which they would destroy the Confederate army force-on-force for much of the campaign, but it was something like it. And it meant that the soldiers on both sides were forced to endure further marches and repeated encounters over the course of the following months. From the Battle of the Wilderness to Cold Harbor, the Army of the Potomac and the Army of Northern Virginia were engaged in more or less constant fighting and marching for six weeks. By the end of it, both forces were nearly tapped out as effective fighting forces, something that would probably have forced a lull in the fighting just as surely as Baldy Smith's failure to seize Petersburg did. And, of course, European armies were able to experience this as well, in the Battles of the Frontiers at the opening of the First World War.

That's not to say that the tropes of modern warfare - that it involves about 99% inaction, boredom, and waiting and 1% fighting and terror, for instance - aren't true. (My personal favorite one is that there are two elements of war, mud and dust.) But they were even more true earlier in history. No country on Earth could sustain operations at the tempo of the Overland Campaign, the Battles of the Frontiers, or even the 1991 "hundred hour war" in the Gulf, for a decade, much less eighty years as in the case of the Dutch. Nobody could, really; in the aftermath of those big campaigns in the great industrialized wars of the last century and a half, armies had to stop and institute general operational pauses. There are limits to what men can do in war.

This was a kind of meandering, rambling answer to a question that wasn't really asked, but I think it's reasonably relevant and there are some useful nuggets in there.
 
It brings to mind certain battles in the American Civil War, which the Union won despite loosing several times more soldiers than the Confederate armies was able to field in the first place.

Come again? A quick peek at wikipedia lists:

140,414 killed in action
~ 365,000 total dead
275,200 wounded

For the Union side, against a 1,064,000 total for the CSA. So it would seem that Union losses were only about half of what the CSA fielded, though 1.6 times more casualties than were suffered by the CSA.
 
Come again? A quick peek at wikipedia lists:

140,414 killed in action
~ 365,000 total dead
275,200 wounded

For the Union side, against a 1,064,000 total for the CSA. So it would seem that Union losses were only about half of what the CSA fielded, though 1.6 times more casualties than were suffered by the CSA.
He was talking about individual battles. Still a massive exaggeration.

That 1.6 times more casualties, if correct - lotta debate about that given the awful state of the Confederate military bureaucracy - would fit extremely well with an army that was by necessity engaged in offensive warfare basically all the time. Lanchester's Law and all that.
 
JEELEN said:
*Fun fact: Ho Chi Minh actually wanted the US to support his independence movement, but got blown off; it was only after this that he turned Commy. So in the end the US produced their own Communist threat in Vietnam.

That's utter nonsense. Ho Chi Mihn did court American support out of a belief that American was a progressive force viz. a viz. France and could therefore be co-opted into opposing French designs on Vietnam. He also did it because it was Comintern policy to work with bourgeoisie nationalists against Imperialists and had been since the 1920s (the so-called 'bloc within' strategy). When his appeals to America became futile he gave them up and turned on the less cooperative members of his bloc. For instance Ngo Dinh Khoi, the brother of Ngo Dinh Diem, was probably killed at his instigation. But even without those insights the evidence against that claim is overwhelming. Among other things Ho Chi Mihn was a founding member of the Parti Communiste Français in 1920, studied in the Soviet Union in 1923 and attended the Fifth Comintern Congress in 1924. His activities from 1924 onwards are best described as an active agent of the Comintern. This was all long before his return to Vietnam in 1940.
 
invading the North would have brought in the Chinese , removing the need for Cultural Revolution and stuff for Mao to "unite" the country as he liked ; the way out for Vietnam was actually fighting the war Americans claimed they were fighting , one for the heart and mind of the country . An escalation with Chinese involved , which would also bring in "unlimited" Russian material support would have done US "much good". Linebacker operations of '72 hurt the North a lot , but Americans had already removed themselves from the equation by then , hence 1975 .
 
That's utter nonsense. Ho Chi Mihn did court American support out of a belief that American was a progressive force viz. a viz. France and could therefore be co-opted into opposing French designs on Vietnam. He also did it because it was Comintern policy to work with bourgeoisie nationalists against Imperialists and had been since the 1920s (the so-called 'bloc within' strategy). When his appeals to America became futile he gave them up and turned on the less cooperative members of his bloc. For instance Ngo Dinh Khoi, the brother of Ngo Dinh Diem, was probably killed at his instigation. But even without those insights the evidence against that claim is overwhelming. Among other things Ho Chi Mihn was a founding member of the Parti Communiste Français in 1920, studied in the Soviet Union in 1923 and attended the Fifth Comintern Congress in 1924. His activities from 1924 onwards are best described as an active agent of the Comintern. This was all long before his return to Vietnam in 1940.
Beat me to it. Ho was most assuredly a Communist. A much better argument can be mde for Castro not being a Communist, though he certainly had tendencies towards Marxist-Leninism. Ho may have been a more moderate socialist had he received US support - it isn't exactly unheard of for the US to support moderate socialist groups to keep hard-line Communists and Socialists out of power - but he was never oing o be a liberal democrat, or a US ally in the Cold War. Vietnamese difficulties with China made a relationship with the USSR inevitable.

invading the North would have brought in the Chinese , removing the need for Cultural Revolution and stuff for Mao to "unite" the country as he liked ; the way out for Vietnam was actually fighting the war Americans claimed they were fighting , one for the heart and mind of the country . An escalation with Chinese involved , which would also bring in "unlimited" Russian material support would have done US "much good". Linebacker operations of '72 hurt the North a lot , but Americans had already removed themselves from the equation by then , hence 1975 .
I never know what you're on about. China and Vietnam were always at loggerheads, and the Sino-Soviet rift ensured Vietnam's participation in any Sino-Soviet confrontation, whether they wanted it or not.
 
Lord Baal said:
Ho may have been a more moderate socialist had he received US support - it isn't exactly unheard of for the US to support moderate socialist groups to keep hard-line Communists and Socialists out of power - but he was never oing o be a liberal democrat, or a US ally in the Cold War.
He wasn't quite an outright Stalinist, but he seems to have learned rather a great deal from the Georgian. "Moderate socialism" was therefore out of the question except as a temporary expedient.

Lord Baal said:
I never know what you're on about. China and Vietnam were always at loggerheads, and the Sino-Soviet rift ensured Vietnam's participation in any Sino-Soviet confrontation, whether they wanted it or not.

Not actually true. The Chinese before the Sino-Soviet split had reasonable relations with the Vietnamese. So much so, that the Chinese stationed a fair number of troops inside Vietnam to assist with reconstruction and with Vietnam's anti-air defenses. Even after the Sino-Soviet split (not itself a discrete event) Vietnam managed to maintain tolerable relations with the Chinese. It was only after the Soviets had manged to get an undertaking from the United States not to invade the North (and this it must be noted occurred only after such a move was an acknowledged impracticability on the American side) that the Vietnamese began to slowly disentangle themselves from the Chinese. Even then, most of the Sinophile members of the the Party were shuffled or marginalized rather than purged in recognition of their potential value as mediators should the need have arisen for Chinese intervention.
 
That's utter nonsense. Ho Chi Mihn did court American support out of a belief that American was a progressive force viz. a viz. France and could therefore be co-opted into opposing French designs on Vietnam. He also did it because it was Comintern policy to work with bourgeoisie nationalists against Imperialists and had been since the 1920s (the so-called 'bloc within' strategy). When his appeals to America became futile he gave them up and turned on the less cooperative members of his bloc. For instance Ngo Dinh Khoi, the brother of Ngo Dinh Diem, was probably killed at his instigation. But even without those insights the evidence against that claim is overwhelming. Among other things Ho Chi Mihn was a founding member of the Parti Communiste Français in 1920, studied in the Soviet Union in 1923 and attended the Fifth Comintern Congress in 1924. His activities from 1924 onwards are best described as an active agent of the Comintern. This was all long before his return to Vietnam in 1940.

And that's all circumstantial. The reality is that he didn't pursue a hardline Communist course in Vietnam until after his hopes of American support for Vietnamese independence were consistently rebuffed. Already after WW I he wanted to appeal to Woodrow Wilson for support of a Vietnamese independence. You should check a recent biography on him on that. So my conclusion stands: the US created their own 'Communist threat' in Vietnam.

Ho was most assuredly a Communist. A much better argument can be mde for Castro not being a Communist, though he certainly had tendencies towards Marxist-Leninism. Ho may have been a more moderate socialist had he received US support - it isn't exactly unheard of for the US to support moderate socialist groups to keep hard-line Communists and Socialists out of power - but he was never oing o be a liberal democrat, or a US ally in the Cold War. Vietnamese difficulties with China made a relationship with the USSR inevitable.

More of the same. 'Ho was most assuredly a Communist' only represents US opinion on him. Castro actually presents a different case: US interest in Cuba were such, that foreign policy had little choice but to be anti-Castro. That's not to say that their embargo all but lost its meaning and turned out only to tie Casto Cuba firmly to the Soviet camp. So in the end the US now created their own 'Communist threat' on their very doorstep, ultimately resulting in the totally unnecessary Cuba crisis. And similarly, there no signs of a Castro-free Cuba, whereas Vietnam has been liberalizing with no US pressure whatsoever. So the whole Vietnam War was a utter and complete waste of men, material and money, causing decades of destruction of both sides. Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan, nothing much has been learned since. The US seem completely incapable of befriending 'the locals', as it were. Perhaps this is typical of US foreign policy all around?

He wasn't quite an outright Stalinist, but he seems to have learned rather a great deal from the Georgian. "Moderate socialism" was therefore out of the question except as a temporary expedient.

Besides being besides the facts, that sounds rather deterministic.
 
JEELEN said:
And that's all circumstantial.

... two decades of activity, circumstantial?

JEELEN said:
The reality is that he didn't pursue a hardline Communist course in Vietnam until after his hopes of American support for Vietnamese independence were consistently rebuffed.

The reality is he was always a Communist. His moderate policies were tactical in nature and designed to get the Americans to force the French to withdraw from Indochina. Simple as that.

As an aside, what were these moderate policies and how long did they last?

JEELEN said:
Already after WW I he wanted to appeal to Woodrow Wilson for support of a Vietnamese independence.

How does that prove he wasn't a Communist?

JEELEN said:
You should check a recent biography on him on that.

I have. There's little to no room to suggest that Ho was anything but a Communist from the 1920s onwards.

JEELEN said:
Besides being besides the facts, that sounds rather deterministic.

You haven't provided a single fact so far.
 
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