• We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.

History questions not worth their own thread V

Status
Not open for further replies.
The earliest reliable reference (circa 100 BC) to Laozi is found in the Records of the Grand Historian (Shiji) by Chinese historian Sima Qian (ca. 145-86 BC), which combines a number of stories. In the first, Laozi was said to be a contemporary of Confucius (551-479 BC). His surname was Li (李 "plum"), and his personal name was Er (耳 "ear") or Dan (聃 "long ear"). He was an official in the imperial archives, and wrote a book in two parts before departing to the West. In the second, Laozi was Lao Laizi (老莱子 "Old Master"), also a contemporary of Confucius, who wrote a book in 15 parts. In the third, Laozi was the Grand Historian and astrologer Lao Dan (老聃 "Old Long-ears"), who lived during the reign (384-362 BC) of Duke Xiàn (獻公) of Qin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_Tsu

Take your pick. Either they're contemporaries or Confucius predates Lao Tzu by 200 hundred years.

I'm not sure it matters. They have different interests, don't they?
 
I had a debate with my professor which he admit himself he had a lack knowledge regarding chinese history. He claim Confucius is much older than Toaism, I read a lots of Chinese literature even in Highschool I consider myself as their fan. From what I read I remember Lao Tze appearance as before or after Confucius is still in debate, but most probably he appear before Confucius, later on Tao most probably not a religion that been made by Lao Tze its probably appear way before Lao Tze.

But my teacher still insisting on the subject putting Tao after Confucianism.

My question is :

1. Is Taoism appear before Lao Tze?
2. Do Lao Tze is in the same time of Confucius, or appear later on, or appear before Confucius?

Thanks for reading my comment.
Lao Tze and Confucius were contemporaries, more or less, so there's not much between them in that sense. The problem really is, Confucianism can be traced directly to Confucius himself, so we have a very straight-forward start-date available to us, while Taoism really emerged over a course of centuries, and it's not clear where we draw the line. "Taoism" was a distinct school until the Han period, well after Confucianism was an established school, but most of its central tenants firmly pre-date it, and Lao Tze's role in all this was to bring together these ancient ideas in a way that would later become identified as "Taoism". Where you draw the line is really going to be a matter of the context you're talking about, so it's not really possible to generalise.

edit: Or as Borachio says, they might not be contemporaries, which I wasn't aware of. Shows what I know!
 
Why did the Romans abandon the city of Rome as their capital?
 
Why did the Romans abandon the city of Rome as their capital?

Mainly that a) it wasn't really favorably oriented to deal with the Empire's problems (i.e. it was too far away from Gaul and the northern borders), and b) it had the Senate. Also it was totally reliant on trade with other regions for supply, it was an impossibly hard position to defend, and the city was in a state of disrepair by the 3rd century.
 
Are you referring to the Western Empire moving its capital northwards, to Milan and later Ravenna?


EDIT: Cross-posted.
 
Mainly that a) it wasn't really favorably oriented to deal with the Empire's problems (i.e. it was too far away from Gaul and the northern borders), and b) it had the Senate. Also it was totally reliant on trade with other regions for supply, it was an impossibly hard position to defend, and the city was in a state of disrepair by the 3rd century.
Most of this, yes.

Over the course of the third and fourth centuries, the monarchy became even more of an overtly military state than it had been before. The change was less in terms of iconography - Augustus had never pretended to be anything other than a dictator whose power rested on his army - and more in terms of management and control. The Emperors, especially in the West, found it expedient to maintain permanent residences close to zones of military operations, partly for propagandistic purposes but mostly so they could directly manage those military operations.

In addition, the West saw something of a shift in regional authority during that period. By the late third century, Gallic provincial leaders were easily as powerful as those in Italy, who basically lost their monopoly on power. Moving the capital to Gaul and Germania had the salient effect of improving the Emperors' abilities to manage the Gallic aristocracy. The proximity of the court and the expansion of the army meant more opportunities for patronage there, which kept the locals happy. The consequences of not massaging Gallic interests were frequently dire. In the 250s and 260s, Gaul raised up a series of contestants to the imperial throne when Gallic magnates felt that they weren't getting enough of a slice of the patronage pie; the same thing happened beginning in the 380s after the Emperor Gratianus returned his capital to Italy.

It's harder to articulate why the capital did not return to Rome (with one or two brief exceptions) after Gratianus flipped his Gallic supporters off. It's true that managing the Senate was a factor, but only in a negative sense: in the fourth and fifth centuries, it was exceedingly possible to manage the senatorial aristocracy without actually residing in Rome, something that was probably not possible in the time of Augustus. But that doesn't really provide a positive reason for the Emperors to live in swampy fortresses like Ravenna. Defensibility might've been one concern, but the problem with that is that there weren't really military threats in Italy until long after the move was actually made. Avoiding the Senate might've been a factor, but the Senate generally lacked the capacity to actually interfere in politics during that period. It's true that the city of Rome was often "in a state of disrepair" at points in the third and fifth centuries, but it's hard to see whether that was cause or effect of the Emperors' departure.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_Tsu

Take your pick. Either they're contemporaries or Confucius predates Lao Tzu by 200 hundred years.

I'm not sure it matters. They have different interests, don't they?

It's matter for the class Borachio, we try to make a historical timeline in order to understand or maybe just to acknowledge the development of idea around the world. It's good to see the professor to be honest regarding his limitation on the subject, and he mention Sheng Dynasty around 1750 bc that we clearly don't have any idea what is it, and he said "I get that from this book, don't know if it correct".

Confucius appear to me more into system of life and government, without a tiny drop of spirituality (in the sense of believing the unseen) unlike the Tao, so I think with only this small aspects those two are really different from one and another.

And I really surprise to found that Confucius predate Laozi for 200 year, I feel so ashamed how I insist so much in the class.

The problem really is, Confucianism can be traced directly to Confucius himself, so we have a very straight-forward start-date available to us, while Taoism really emerged over a course of centuries, and it's not clear where we draw the line.

This is so truth, and if they were really contemporaries as one of the Chinese student in my class believed, than it's clear that Taoism is much older. But yea the data seem not clear and negating each other, I wonder how well documented the history record in this era in China?
 
So I fear this question might be overly broad, but how did the Latinization of the West Roman Empire's imperial provinces come about?

Particularly in Taraconnensis, Narbonensie, and the Gallic lands.

Also, why was Dalmatia, despite it's close proximity to Italy, never really Romanized?
 
How long does it usually take map producers to change the borders on their maps after the have changed in real life?

I keep seeing new maps without North/South Sudan and I don't understand why.
 
So I fear this question might be overly broad, but how did the Latinization of the West Roman Empire's imperial provinces come about?

Particularly in Taraconnensis, Narbonensie, and the Gallic lands.
Quickly.
TheLastOne36 said:
Also, why was Dalmatia, despite it's close proximity to Italy, never really Romanized?
It was. :confused:
 
So I fear this question might be overly broad, but how did the Latinization of the West Roman Empire's imperial provinces come about?

Particularly in Taraconnensis, Narbonensie, and the Gallic lands.
These are all regions where the Romans introduced urban culture and public administration where people had previously been living in a much more decentralized way. It makes sense to assume that this made it a lot easier for the Latin language and Roman culture to spread than say, in the Hellenic world, where these things were already present and provided resistance to Roman influences.

I'm only speculating here though.
 
What is the most respected historical/archeological account of the rise and fall of the Roman Republic and Empire? Are there several different ones that focus on different eras?
 
What is the most respected historical/archeological account of the rise and fall of the Roman Republic and Empire? Are there several different ones that focus on different eras?

For the "fall" of the Empire I would recommend Guy Halsall's Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West, 376-568.
 
Cool thanks! Holy moly it is expensive though.
Yeah, a lot of academic monographs are pretty expensive. They're not going to sell a lot among the general public anyway, so the publishers ramp up the price to make back the money from all the academic institutions that pretty much have to buy it.

Halsall's book is really good, though. If you have access to a university library somehow, that'd be the place to go.

For the Republic's assumption of hegemony in Europe, I kinda like Arthur Eckstein's Mediterranean Anarchy and the Rise of Rome, another monograph-type book.
 
Mainly that a) it wasn't really favorably oriented to deal with the Empire's problems (i.e. it was too far away from Gaul and the northern borders), and b) it had the Senate. Also it was totally reliant on trade with other regions for supply, it was an impossibly hard position to defend, and the city was in a state of disrepair by the 3rd century.

Constantinople is much further away from Gaul than Rome was. And I thought Rome had a good defensible position? Or are saying that Rome was vulnerable in a general geostrategic sense (which wouldn't make sense either, given where it was in Italy)?

Are you referring to the Western Empire moving its capital northwards, to Milan and later Ravenna?

No, but that's curious as well. In the early centuries it seemed like Rome was the republic, and moving the Senate to another city would be unthinkable.
 
Constantinople was in an excellent defensible and commercial position and was close to the eastern provinces, while Ravenna and Mediolanum were simply in better positions to control both Gallic and Italian nobility in the West than Rome was - While Rome was still notably symbolic and important, the rest of the empire no longer depended on the city of Rome itself.
 
Constantinople is much further away from Gaul than Rome was. And I thought Rome had a good defensible position? Or are saying that Rome was vulnerable in a general geostrategic sense (which wouldn't make sense either, given where it was in Italy)?
Constantinople was ruled by the eastern Emperors starting in the early fourth century. It wouldn't enter into a calculation of western imperial strategy. And it's also important to note that the Romans did not possess a meaningful understanding of anything that we would call "strategy".
Mouthwash said:
No, but that's curious as well. In the early centuries it seemed like Rome was the republic, and moving the Senate to another city would be unthinkable.
That was an artifact of Rome's success. Through the first few centuries of the Empire, Romanness became something that applied to all freedmen under the Emperors' rule, not to the citizens of Rome and her colonies.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom