History questions not worth their own thread V

[Flying Pig]

Yes, that was what I meant by 'the State and its individual leader ought to have total dominance over every aspect of the country'. Whether they actually used that power to its full extent varied from place to place: Hitler, for example, didn't really have an economic policy (aside from what could broadly be termed military Keynesianism), but intervened very heavily in his people's private lives; I think the reverse could almost be said of Mussolini.

Nedim's caveat is valid.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

While we're at dictatorships...I've just read that in N. Korea they have elections but only one name is on the list, and you have to vote. Are there any other cases of this? I've read about such in Yugoslavia, but you did have other choices, they were all from the CP. Whats the point of such elections?

 

[ParkCungHee]

That just sounds like a Populist.

No, Populism relies on a conception of the nation that is an aggregate of the individuals of that nation, if it relies on nationalism at all.

The Fascist conception of the Nation is a metaphysical concept divorced from and unaccountable towards the will of the people.

 

[ace99]

No, Populism relies on a conception of the nation that is an aggregate of the individuals of that nation, if it relies on nationalism at all.

The Fascist conception of the Nation is a metaphysical concept divorced from and unaccountable towards the will of the people.

So Hugo Chavez would be what then?

 

[Flying Pig]

One can be a populist nationalist. The fascist view of the will of the nation is synonymous with the destiny of the nation - one of its key tenets is that most people are too stupid to understand the destiny of the nation, so it takes a leader with vision to direct the nation towards its destiny and to ignore the people who say he's just taking it on his own course.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Lying or malicious is at least as popular as stupid, going back this idea's origin in the French Revolution.

All true Italians know in their hearts what is good for Italy, and Mussolini is a true Italian. So if you disagree with him, one of you is not really being patriotic.

So Hugo Chavez would be what then?

Fairly bog-standard populist nationalist. The appeals to mass referendums and the common man and what not mark him as such.

 

[sydhe]

While we're at dictatorships...I've just read that in N. Korea they have elections but only one name is on the list, and you have to vote. Are there any other cases of this? I've read about such in Yugoslavia, but you did have other choices, they were all from the CP. Whats the point of such elections?

It happened in a number of Communist dictatorships, including Cuba and Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union* itself. I'm pretty sure it was true in Albania under Hoxha. The point is the pretense that the government has the support of the people because they elected them. Sometimes people could leave a candidate spot blank.

*Although, if I remember, Gorbachev allowed some offices to be contested as part of perestroika. I don't know if it extended to all elective offices.

 

[ace99]

Heh Saddam had an election where the only options on the ballot were:

Yes
No

And they were checked by an armed soldier before it was put in the ballot box.


Needless to say he was defeated by a tremendous margin....no wait.

 

[History_Buff]

But what if you wanted to vote for No Scar?

 

[r16]

in a previous post ı have once again lost something in translation . Those guys with 22 years of research actually say it's not Kingtiger , but Tiger II all along . Hopefully this edit will be allowed as an apology , besides being a subscription post as well .

 

[r16]

Whats the point of such elections?

that you are allowed to say no , which can be a real deal of stuff , even when you are most unwelcome to do so .

in the heyday of our one party governance , the votes would be cast in the open , for everybody to see who opposed the goverment and so would suffer later . And counted in secret , so that they could be changed and big-wigs in Ankara wouldn't know there was trouble -hence failure on the part of local authorities- somewhere in the country .

 

[Agent327]

I was going with Third Way Fascism that emphasised national unity over class conflict and capitalism.

I've no idea what 'Third Way Fascism' is supposed to mean, but fascism had little use for class struggle.

 

[Ajidica]

I've no idea what 'Third Way Fascism' is supposed to mean, but fascism had little use for class struggle.

I was referring to Revolutionary Fascism that presented itself as a 'Third Way' between Capitalism and Communism. ie: Not the conservative authoritarianism Fascism developed into in Italy and Spain (and, IIRC, Portugal with the Estado Novo).
I am excluding Nazi Germany for a reason because Masada (or was it Park?) made a pretty interesting argument that due to its ethnic rather than national focus Nazism isn't a great example of Fascism.

 

[Leoreth]

It happened in a number of Communist dictatorships, including Cuba and Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union* itself.

Yeah, East Germany as well. There were opposition parties which were tolerated as representatives of the other socio-economic classes besides farmers and workers, until the class division was finally overcome. There was still quite the election fraud going on, of course.

Hilariously, the East German election laws even gave every citizen the legal right to oversee the vote counting process. Nobody realized that until some election in the 80s, where suddenly hundreds of peoples demanded to be let into the backrooms to inspect the process. They were successful, but the final results were forged anyway, and very blatantly.

 

[Flying Pig]

I was referring to Revolutionary Fascism that presented itself as a 'Third Way' between Capitalism and Communism. ie: Not the conservative authoritarianism Fascism developed into in Italy and Spain (and, IIRC, Portugal with the Estado Novo).
I am excluding Nazi Germany for a reason because Masada (or was it Park?) made a pretty interesting argument that due to its ethnic rather than national focus Nazism isn't a great example of Fascism.

National Socialism simply defined the nation on volkisch terms, which had been pretty popular as a concept in Germany for at least a century and a half: if anything, it's arguably a defining example of fascism, by which all other 'fascist' regimes should be evaluated.

 

[Dachs]

National Socialism simply defined the nation on volkisch terms, which had been pretty popular as a concept in Germany for at least a century and a half: if anything, it's arguably a defining example of fascism, by which all other 'fascist' regimes should be evaluated.

"Pretty popular"? Among certain segments of the revolutionary Right, yeah. Notably, the revolutionary Right did not make up the entirety of German political milieu.

 

[Flying Pig]

Oh, absolutely; my point is that the Nazis hardly invented it or plucked it out of thin air. I'm well aware that it was far from mainstream, excepting perhaps moments during the Great War.

 

[Agent327]

I was referring to Revolutionary Fascism that presented itself as a 'Third Way' between Capitalism and Communism. ie: Not the conservative authoritarianism Fascism developed into in Italy and Spain (and, IIRC, Portugal with the Estado Novo).
I am excluding Nazi Germany for a reason because Masada (or was it Park?) made a pretty interesting argument that due to its ethnic rather than national focus Nazism isn't a great example of Fascism.

There are indeed some defining differences between Nazist and fascist ideology - although the corporatist concept seems endemic to both. It is quite arguable that neither Franco's Spain nor Salazar's Portugal were actually fascist states (although when things were going well they definitely showed admiration for both), as they lacked a fascist movement to begin with (Franco certainly wasn't a fascist, but rather your typical rightwing military man).

 

[Lord Baal]

The Iberians were para-Fascist, rather than Fascist. The Nazis were an offshoot of Fascism, racialised rather than nationalistic.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I don't think that offshoot is accurate, as that implies they had the same ideological roots.

Nazism traces it's thought process back along a very different line of thinking, only only happened to converge with Fascism tactically.