History Rewritten (Original Thread)
- Thread starter Xyth
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Some good ideas there, I'll see what I can do. Note that while it's easy to improve the yield of improvements with techs, I can't as easily do the same for buildings. I'll try though. Have any suggestions for the later eras?
Yes, the Sewers will be made available by Sanitation (which in 0.9.3 will require both Humanism and Hydraulics). I'm not sure how I'm going to rebalance health yet. I really like your idea (back on page 40) but unfortunately there's no obvious way for me to code it without the SDK. I currently have it pencilled in as a task for 0.9.4 or 0.9.5.
Comments on a few of those ideas:
I removed the 10% defense from Coast tiles in 0.9 but never got any further than that. Might be something best handled via promotions. They're quite a way down my to-do list though.
No way I can achieve this in a way that the AI would understand. I agree that there needs to be more for workers to build beyond railroads though (think you mentioned this somewhere). I'd have to take a look sometime and see what's possible.
I looked into these but there's no way I can do it as an interface option, though it might be doable in a limited fashion by having the player edit or swap a file or such.
I can't change the growth rate but adding extra yield when on a railroad is a good idea and very easy to implement. I'll put it in 0.9.3.
This would be best addressed by one or more new buildings I think. I'll see if there's any suitable art.
I need to revisit and rebalance the traits at some point. They were the first proper rule change in HR and I've learned a lot more about game balance and coding since then.
Implemented in 0.9.
There is a mod I know of that does this that has code I could probably borrow. I'll check it out at some point.
I've not considered that before but it might tie in with some of what I'm working on for 0.9.3. I'll have a think about it.
Thanks for the ideas, I'll see what works and what art is available.
Embassies would be awesome but unfortunately the diplomacy aspect of Civ4 is almost entirely untouchable by modders. May still be some scope for embassies without this but I suspect getting the AI to understand the concept would be a formidable/impossible task. I'll look into it sometime though.
Probably not too far away as I'm making good progress already and nothing I have pencilled in is as time consuming as redesigning the techtree. At a guess I'd say not before the end of the month, but not long after.
Then that shall be my deadline!
Howard Mahler
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For the Dock, if you can not have it improve the yields for seafood tiles, may be you could just have plus to food and commerce. Two possibilities
(a) +1 food and +1 commerce for access to each of: fish, crabs, or clams.
(b)+1 food and +1 commerce. Additional +1 commerce or food upon achieving additional technologies.
Possible such techs: Sailing, Navigation, Compass, Refrigeration.
(a) +1 food and +1 commerce for access to each of: fish, crabs, or clams.
(b)+1 food and +1 commerce. Additional +1 commerce or food upon achieving additional technologies.
Possible such techs: Sailing, Navigation, Compass, Refrigeration.
Howard Mahler
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Perhaps could have guildhall requiring Guilds.
As a National Wonder it would take the place of Hagia Sophia, with maybe only a 1/3 increase in worker build speeds.
The Hagia Sophia would make more sense with a different affect more along religious lines.
Instead the Guildhall could be a building, although I am not sure what a new and interesting effect would be. Perhaps a free artist, although that is not a perfect fit. Neither would be a great merchant.
As a National Wonder it would take the place of Hagia Sophia, with maybe only a 1/3 increase in worker build speeds.
The Hagia Sophia would make more sense with a different affect more along religious lines.
Instead the Guildhall could be a building, although I am not sure what a new and interesting effect would be. Perhaps a free artist, although that is not a perfect fit. Neither would be a great merchant.
Howard Mahler
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Here are some game saves from a game as Peter.
Monarch, Huge Map, Marathon.
As mentioned due to a bug, (that has since been corrected) Maya founded all of the religions at once.
Monarch, Huge Map, Marathon.
As mentioned due to a bug, (that has since been corrected) Maya founded all of the religions at once.
Howard Mahler
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Good list.
Here is my list of suggestions from about 2 months ago:
Maybe tobacco, potatoes, coconuts, or items from subsaharan Africa or New Guinea.
Coffee, Tea, Chocolate.
Sugar Cane, Cassava, Sorgum.
I still like Chocolate.
Also adding things from other parts of the world than are already heavily represented, for example coconuts, sorgum, sugar cane, taro.
Barley probably does not make the cut, although it was important for making beer.
One could divide gems up into different types, but I think you will already have enough variety.
Have you thought about having some of these new one, or some of the current ones, have different affects?
Here is my list of suggestions from about 2 months ago:
Maybe tobacco, potatoes, coconuts, or items from subsaharan Africa or New Guinea.
Coffee, Tea, Chocolate.
Sugar Cane, Cassava, Sorgum.
I still like Chocolate.
Also adding things from other parts of the world than are already heavily represented, for example coconuts, sorgum, sugar cane, taro.
Barley probably does not make the cut, although it was important for making beer.
One could divide gems up into different types, but I think you will already have enough variety.
Have you thought about having some of these new one, or some of the current ones, have different affects?
Cocoa would be good but I've not been able to find any suitable artwork, same with the others. There is potentially room for one or two of them though. Sugar is already in default BTS.
The Distillery will be a new building in 0.9.3, it will produce extra happiness from Corn, Potato, Rice, Sugar and Wheat. It will also decrease war weariness and health in the city. It will be available with Chemistry (and thus not til the Renaissance).
Barley/Beer is something I may add if I can find suitable graphics. It will fit in well with the Tavern (which will be available in the Classical era, at Employment).
I'm considering diamonds and/or jade as both of these have considerable historical importance.
Unfortunately there's not a huge amount of interesting mechanics available to resources by default. At this stage I'm not going to be too adventurous other than aiming to create good interplay between buildings and resources. Down the line I may look at experimenting more.
One thing I'm looking into is removing the +1 health or +1 happiness that most resources give just for having access to them. Instead a city only receives the health/happiness benefits if they have the appropriate building (like how the granary, grocer, etc work - just extended to more resources/buildings). If I can balance this I think this would open up a lot of interesting possibilities.
davidtylr
Chieftain
It would be fantastic if there is different terrain like savannah and swamp.
Some more resources ideas
Apple
Honey
Tobacco
Bronze
nuts
maybe flowers like roses and sunflower
Another idea. You can trade stuff like leather, watches or whatever by building national wonders.
Some more resources ideas
Apple
Honey
Tobacco
Bronze
nuts
maybe flowers like roses and sunflower
Another idea. You can trade stuff like leather, watches or whatever by building national wonders.
New terrain would be awesome but it would be a massive task to implement it, reworking all the mapscripts and such. Hopefully it's something I can attempt eventually but no plans for the moment.
Tobacco will be in 0.9.3. Apples are a possibility, depending on what changes I end up making to the Grocer.
Bronze is a tricky one. I'd love to have it so that in order to build most Bronze Age units you'd need a source of both Copper and Tin, and for the Iron Age units would require both Iron and Coal. There are two main problems with this though. Firstly, a civ could be severely disadvantaged early on because they cannot find a source of one these resources. Secondly, the Bronze Age doesn't always last long enough to set up needed trade networks and thus it becomes too desirable to rush to Ironworking and avoid the problem altogether. I may revisit the idea in the future though.
Manufactured resources are an idea I'd like to explore at some point.
Howard Mahler
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Sounds very interesting so far.
I hope you will try very hard for Chocolate or Cocoa.
I am sure you can find artwork for Chocolate.
It was of major importance as a drink as well as a food, and is another example of something from the New World.
Coconuts would add variety and fits in well with Polynesia.
Seals is a possibility for another sea resource.
You will probably have to do some rebalancing to avoid making it too easy to get happiness and health with the additional resources available.
Fermentation is a very old technology which I suggested you add, which would work well with Barley and Grapes (wine).
Fruit trees rather than specifically apples might work better, although apples for the artwork would be fine.
I hope you will try very hard for Chocolate or Cocoa.
I am sure you can find artwork for Chocolate.
It was of major importance as a drink as well as a food, and is another example of something from the New World.
Coconuts would add variety and fits in well with Polynesia.
Seals is a possibility for another sea resource.
You will probably have to do some rebalancing to avoid making it too easy to get happiness and health with the additional resources available.
Fermentation is a very old technology which I suggested you add, which would work well with Barley and Grapes (wine).
Fruit trees rather than specifically apples might work better, although apples for the artwork would be fine.
Howard Mahler
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Iron working did not require coal, at least for the first 1000 or 2000 years it was done.
As you point out, copper and tin for bronze would only work in the game if the tech tree at that stage was stretched out (more techs each costing somewhat less) so that the Bronze age lasted considerably longer.
"Bronze is a tricky one. I'd love to have it so that in order to build most Bronze Age units you'd need a source of both Copper and Tin, and for the Iron Age units would require both Iron and Coal. There are two main problems with this though. Firstly, a civ could be severely disadvantaged early on because they cannot find a source of one these resources. Secondly, the Bronze Age doesn't always last long enough to set up needed trade networks and thus it becomes too desirable to rush to Ironworking and avoid the problem altogether. I may revisit the idea in the future though."
As you point out, copper and tin for bronze would only work in the game if the tech tree at that stage was stretched out (more techs each costing somewhat less) so that the Bronze age lasted considerably longer.
"Bronze is a tricky one. I'd love to have it so that in order to build most Bronze Age units you'd need a source of both Copper and Tin, and for the Iron Age units would require both Iron and Coal. There are two main problems with this though. Firstly, a civ could be severely disadvantaged early on because they cannot find a source of one these resources. Secondly, the Bronze Age doesn't always last long enough to set up needed trade networks and thus it becomes too desirable to rush to Ironworking and avoid the problem altogether. I may revisit the idea in the future though."
Howard Mahler
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I was thinking that with some buildings some resources could give hammers or coins rather than health or happiness. Perhaps in one or two cases, a combination of building and resource could even give a free great person.
"Unfortunately there's not a huge amount of interesting mechanics available to resources by default. At this stage I'm not going to be too adventurous other than aiming to create good interplay between buildings and resources. Down the line I may look at experimenting more.
One thing I'm looking into is removing the +1 health or +1 happiness that most resources give just for having access to them. Instead a city only receives the health/happiness benefits if they have the appropriate building (like how the granary, grocer, etc work - just extended to more resources/buildings). If I can balance this I think this would open up a lot of interesting possibilities."
"Unfortunately there's not a huge amount of interesting mechanics available to resources by default. At this stage I'm not going to be too adventurous other than aiming to create good interplay between buildings and resources. Down the line I may look at experimenting more.
One thing I'm looking into is removing the +1 health or +1 happiness that most resources give just for having access to them. Instead a city only receives the health/happiness benefits if they have the appropriate building (like how the granary, grocer, etc work - just extended to more resources/buildings). If I can balance this I think this would open up a lot of interesting possibilities."
Howard Mahler
Since Civ 1
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There are other resources that are used in manufacturing today.
For example:
Rare Earths.
Lithium.
Titanium.
Perhaps some of these could be included for the modern or future era.
For example:
Rare Earths.
Lithium.
Titanium.
Perhaps some of these could be included for the modern or future era.
2D graphics like buttons aren't an issue, I can easily make them myself for any resource. The 3D in-game model is the issue, though I could possibly recolour the one I'm using for Coffee.
Agreed but sadly I've not been able to find any usable 3D graphics that even resemble a coconut palm. The most important crop of Polynesia and South America was the potato though, so at least that's in.
I have seal graphics (actually sealion, but close enough) but the challenge I have is placing them properly. The graphic is designed for land placement and there is no built in mechanic to place resources only on land next to the ocean. I could instead just place them in coastal tiles (below 45º latitude) but it might look a bit odd as they'd be sitting on the water.
That's why I'm thinking of removing the health/happiness you get just for having access to a resource and retaining only the health/happiness you get from buildings like the Granary or Grocer that can use the resource. This should make happiness/health buildings like the Baths more desirable, and possibly even the culture slider.
I'm leaving the tech tree as is for now (other than adding crosslinks) as it's so time consuming to work on and other aspects of the mod need work first. If I eventually go back and add more techs Fermentation is definitely a strong candidate.
I have art for Apples and Lemons that I've not used yet. So I'm thinking Apples, Citrus and Bananas. Or keeping it simple as Fruit and Tropical Fruit (renamed Bananas). Or some combination thereof.
Reason I haven't decided yet is I'm wondering if there isn't some interesting way to make Citrus improve Naval buildings/units.
Yep, and for both these reasons I think I'll just leave it as Copper and Iron, for now at least.
Resources by themselves can give health, happiness, food, production, or commerce. Via buildings I can make resources give health, happiness, a % increase to food/production/commerce or provide power (like coal plant).
Buildings can also provide a free bonus (like Broadway, Hollywood and Rock n Roll do) and this is a mechanic I'd like to explore the possibilities of at a later time. Unfortunately there is no way to make a building consume a resource. Instead they can block a resource being accessed (like National Park), speed up production of the building (like Stone and Marble) or require a resource in order to be built at all (like units).
Any else would require Python coding and thus creating potential AI issues. For 0.9.3 I'm sticking to the available mechanics but in the future I may experiment further.
I was considering setting up a Aluminium/Titanium dichotomy in the modern era much like the Copper/Iron one in earlier eras. In the interest of getting it finished in a timely manner I decided to leave that idea out of 0.9.3. Even if I don't go with that idea there is definitely some scope for new metals in the modern era.
The other factor I should mention is that there seems to be a 'soft limit' of 48 total resources allowed. Although I think I can add more than this it requires a lot more work and testing to do so and thus I do not want to go over this limit in 0.9.3. Indeed I'd like to leave a couple 'slots' free for now, just in case this limit turns out to be insurmountable.
s.bernbaum
Mostly lurking
Minor quibble. The important Polynesian root crop was taro not potato. Potato is originally a South American mountain country root crop.
