How big is immigration an issue on people's minds (USA and elsewhere)?

[Gori the Grey]

Second and more importantly, there is an inherent contradiction in saying that you recognize a culture should be preserved, but you deny and oppose what can actually preserve it. That's the catch, you see, some things are simply incompatibles. You can't both support massive changes to a population AND the preservation of its identity. That's just contradictory.

On your first point, "progressives," rather than "the left." I was quoting from memory.

On the second point. Our difference probably centers on what is meant by "culture." In my view, you can preserve (for yourself and whatever larger group wants to share it) whatever is important to you about "French culture." And you can do that whatever cultural practices people are around you may happen to be observing. To use Lex's analogy: if someone is playing checkers in the same park as you, it doesn't impact your chess game one bit. Culture is an action not a fixed state. You preserve a culture by continuing to do and value and believe the things that that culture has traditionally done and valued and believed.

You talk a little like the people here who opposed gay marriage by saying it would somehow detract from traditional heterosexual marriage. How? If you're straight and married, keep being straight and married and enjoy whatever it is in your straight marriage that you enjoyed before.

The larger French society will change as a result of the new cultures introduced into it. Traditional French culture won't dominate as it once did, maybe. But that doesn't take your identity away from you.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The larger French society will change as a result of the new cultures introduced into it. Traditional French culture won't dominate as it once did, maybe. But that doesn't take your identity away from you.

The French cultures of Louis XIV, Napoleon I, Fifth Republic, and today have all been different. Oh well. I would bet that the various transitions upset some groups of people and pleased others.

 

[Gori the Grey]

For now I'm leaving that out. Others have mentioned it. Even if you somehow had a perfectly homogenous culture, it would over time, change on its own. What I'm trying to get at is "my group enjoyed this level of culture dominance at one point in our country's history, so we're entitled to that same level forever or else we can't be said to have an identity."

 

[Akka]

Out of academic interest, why not? The Welsh language was effectively resurrected in Wales.

You can't both change and preserve something simultaneously. I hope I don't have to explain why.

On the second point. Our difference probably centers on what is meant by "culture." In my view, you can preserve (for yourself and whatever larger group wants to share it) whatever is important to you about "French culture." And you can do that whatever cultural practices people are around you may happen to be observing. To use Lex's analogy: if someone is playing checkers in the same park as you, it doesn't impact your chess game one bit. Culture is an action not a fixed state. You preserve a culture by continuing to do and value and believe the things that that culture has traditionally done and valued and believed.

You talk a little like the people here who opposed gay marriage by saying it would somehow detract from traditional heterosexual marriage. How? If you're straight and married, keep being straight and married and enjoy whatever it is in your straight marriage that you enjoyed before.

You can't "preserve a national identity by yourself". That's conceptually nonsensical, a national identity is by its very nature the common state of an entire country. A part is not the whole, and the whole can change without changing the part.
But what the people who want to preserve it are attached to, is the whole.
The argument that "you can still do your thing as before", is not relevant to the actual root problem that makes people upset.

To get back at the chess club analogy*, the essence of the club is to play chess. You can play chess outside the club. You can stop liking chess and leave the club. But if people who aren't interested in chess barge in and start to play something else, then it stops being a chess club. And if you like the chess club, that SUCKS and you won't be happy about it, and very legitimately so.

*I'm rather wary using analogies, due to how easy it is both to a) honestly get it interpreted in the wrong way, and b) dishonestly gloss over the main point just to find a way to twist it into something else. But it's still a useful tool to try for a common reference to illustrate a general idea, as long as people accept to play along, and I think you're being sincere so I'm going to risk it.

The larger French society will change as a result of the new cultures introduced into it. Traditional French culture won't dominate as it once did, maybe. But that doesn't take your identity away from you.

It's irrelevant. My problem is not my personnal identity, my problem is that the identity of my nation is being altered against the will of its population.

(also, as a general distaste, that all cultures around the world are being watered down into a more and more uniform soup and losing their uniqueness due to massive exchanges of populations and information, but my main gripe is the denial of the right of self-determination through hypocrital ethical claims)

 

[Gorbles]

I have repeatedly said illegal immigration and refugees aren't a big problem here.

Legel immigrants can vote after a few years.

People also tend to vote along economic lines . Visas tend to go to those who can afford them.

And? I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. So what if immigrants get to vote after a few years? Are you saying they shouldn't?

You can't both change and preserve something simultaneously. I hope I don't have to explain why.

A language can change (however slightly) year on year, and yet endures as a language. In Wales' case, it was brought back from the dead despite the increasingly multicultural nature of the UK, of which Wales is a part.

Maybe the issue is you need to be more explicit, and leave less as "not needing to be explained".

A lot of this keeps coming back to attempts at truisms without giving concrete examples that would greatly aid the discussion. I attempted to raise a singular semi-local example of successfully preserving culture in an increasingly globalist society.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It's irrelevant. My problem is not my personnal identity, my problem is that the identity of my nation is being altered against the will of its population.

It is not the first time for France. Globalization is real and every Friday will bring "le week-end". What portion of France's population are seriously concerned about the changing culture and see it as a bad thing? Is it different in urban versus rural areas?

 

[Zardnaar]

And? I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. So what if immigrants get to vote after a few years? Are you saying they shouldn't?


A language can change (however slightly) year on year, and yet endures as a language. In Wales' case, it was brought back from the dead despite the increasingly multicultural nature of the UK, of which Wales is a part.

Maybe the issue is you need to be more explicit, and leave less as "not needing to be explained".

A lot of this keeps coming back to attempts at truisms without giving concrete examples that would greatly aid the discussion. I attempted to raise a singular semi-local example of successfully preserving culture in an increasingly globalist society.

I'm saying that current rates are having flow on effects. Trudeau just resigned the tights going too slaughter the liberals on current polling.

In UK the left is only 30% of the electorate.

There's a reason why the right elites are happy with it. Why else would Elon Musk love H1B?

 

[Gorbles]

I'm saying that current rates are having flow on effects. Trudeau just resigned the tights going too slaughter the liberals on current polling.

In UK the left is only 30% of the electorate.

There's a reason why the right elites are happy with it. Why else would Elon Musk love H1B?

So after saying legal immigration isn't a problem, you're back to pointing the finger at . . . legal immigration?

Do you have anything coherent or otherwise non-contradictory to offer?

 

[Voidwalkin]

I have Algerian friends who I know are atheist but won't ever tell it openly, because apostasy in islam is punished by death penalty, and there are many guys around who consider themselves "soldiers of God", and you just don't want to have that kind of problem.

Not gonna lie, that is astonishingly disturbing. Even made me a bit angry, as an American atheist.

 

[Arwon]

The French cultures of Louis XIV, Napoleon I, Fifth Republic, and today have all been different. Oh well. I would bet that the various transitions upset some groups of people and pleased others.

Not to mention Breton, Basque, Corsican, Catalan etc cultures

 

[Arwon]

Possibly.
But would you extrapolate that if it goes from 20% to 50% in another generation, it will also be only for the better?

It's likely already not too far off that mark in Sydney with about 42% speaking another language at home, 43% born overseas, 70% having a parent born overseas, etc.

Maybe those last few percentage points will push things over into the nightmare land, but more likely it'll just mean soccer and basketball become bigger sports and the crowds at the cricket wear more blue shirts when India are touring.

 

[Senethro]

Do our national preservers give a damn about regional identity preservation? The biggest English nationalists seem to get riled by the Scottish Parliament just existing.

 

[Arwon]

Castilian fascists like Vox are not exactly keen on Catalan and Basque nationalism either

 

[Gorbles]

Right-wing parties in the UK have famously historically been against Scottish independence and / or as strongly in favour of the Act of Union, to say nothing of Wales over in the corner. The latter doesn't even have a proper parliament by comparison.

 

[Gori the Grey]

But if people who aren't interested in chess barge in and start to play something else, then it stops being a chess club. And if you like the chess club, that SUCKS and you won't be happy about it, and very legitimately so.

If these new people start playing checkers, then it's a chess-and-checkers club, but if everybody who used to play chess can still play chess, then nothing has been lost for them.

Or, if you're wary of analogies, just say directly: what could a French person do in 1980, that was expressive of French identity, that that person can't do now? I gave my silly stereotypes: baguettes, chic clothing and Sartre. But descend to that level of detail and point me to some element of your French identity that you've lost due to other people being in your country.

 

[Yeekim]

It's likely already not too far off that mark in Sydney with about 42% speaking another language at home, 43% born overseas, 70% having a parent born overseas, etc.

Maybe those last few percentage points will push things over into the nightmare land, but more likely it'll just mean soccer and basketball become bigger sports and the crowds at the cricket wear more blue shirts when India are touring.

Indeed, by virtue of its geography Australia is likely better positioned than many other countries to make sure that the people arriving are mostly the ones it actually wants to have.
...
And I can see how a former penal colony may be more eager than most to embrace just any sort of change...

 

[Marla_Singer]

Not gonna lie, that is astonishingly disturbing. Even made me a bit angry, as an American atheist.

Don't take this too literally, I wasn't saying there was really a risk of death, only that it's better to keep some things untold in a certain context. I also knew a muslim girl who converted to lutheranism, it was a mess in her family but it was mainly a matter of moral pressure, and that is already something that many people want to spare.

As a matter of fact, I think there are many more atheists in the muslim world than we generally think, even in theocracies we wouldn't expect like Iran and Saudi Arabia where people are actually risking something if that would be known. So this creates societies of silence, where happiness lies in living discreetly.

 

[Zardnaar]

So after saying legal immigration isn't a problem, you're back to pointing the finger at . . . legal immigration?

Do you have anything coherent or otherwise non-contradictory to offer?

I'm saying immigration legal or otherwise at its current rates in some countries has negative effects and political impacts.

Stop strawmanning me btw.

If you want a better world or more left wingbpolicies you might need to give up on immigration otherwise people will just elect the right and an F you. They won't fix crap either.

Sone countries need a massive amount of immigrants. That's their problem to figure out.

 

[Yeekim]

I also knew a muslim girl who converted to lutheranism,

FWIW, one of my absolute favorite colleagues is a Tunisian girl from France.
Smart, fun, great work ethic.
Converted to Catholicism a few years ago... will not risk letting her family know.

Or, if you're wary of analogies, just say directly: what could a French person do in 1980, that was expressive of French identity, that that person can't do now?

Draw Muhammad without a risk to their life?
Although you might need to go back even further for that.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm saying immigration legal or otherwise at its current rates in sone countries gas negative effects and political impacts.

Stop strawmanning me btw.

I have been incredibly careful to make sure I've been quoting you correctly, and I've been checking throughout. I've simply been trying to understand what you keep trying to say when you reply to me. You can't just moan "strawman" because somebody is either confused at what you're saying, or not impressed with the conclusions you're drawing.

Your latest post seems to be "immigration can have a negative impact"? Yes, and? It can also have positive impact. It can even be both, simultaneously, given that immigration isn't localised upon a single geographical point. It all depends on the context. It's also affected by a bajillion other factors, a bunch of which are arguably more important (welfare, cost of living, business regulation, minimum wage, house markets, rent caps, etc, et al. The list goes on).