How cynical of Democracy are you?

[aelf]

I'm sorry democracy is not working out for you. Maybe if you knew that the capitalist ideology tends to spell trouble, you might at least be somewhat wary of the kind of politics that exist to support and perpetuate it. Instead, you let it go on then angst about how it's screwed up.

Plenty of lessons learned from historical Communist regimes (one would hope), but almost none from capitalist ones so far.

 

[Karalysia]

I'm sorry democracy is not working out for you. Maybe if you knew that the capitalist ideology tends to spell trouble, you might at least be somewhat wary of the kind of politics that exist to support and perpetuate it. Instead, you let it go on then angst about how it's screwed up.

Plenty of lessons learned from historical Communist regimes (one would hope), but almost none from capitalist ones so far.

The capitalist will never learn their lesson or change their ways as long as there is profit to be made. It's funny that when unregulated capitalisim resulted in the largest recession since the great depression, the right instead of turning against their against their capitalist rulers instead became even more fanatically devoted to them (see Tea Party) and further increased their calls for the same unregulated capitalisim and political corruption that had resulted in the collapse in the first place.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The idea of basing elections on who can get the mostly people to pledge their support for them or consider them the lesser of 2 (or more) evils is vastly inferior to a system where each voter independently rates each candidate.



It was not unregulated capitalism that caused our economic woes, but heavily subsidized crony capitalism.


(There are actually many examples of capitalism working well where the policies are the most Georgist, and vice versa.)

 

[Abaddon]

How would that differ? Certain parties will still push their candidate.

A vote is merely the highest rating.

 

[Karalysia]

It was not unregulated capitalism that caused our economic woes, but heavily subsidized crony capitalism.

That is the common refrain by capitalists. Yet the "free" market naturally and inevitable results in "crony" capitalism. One actor, or certain actors will come to dominate the "free" market in the form of oligopolies and monopolies. This happens naturally and inevitably in "free" market capitalism. They will set prices, control supply, distrubtion, and wages. They will reach a status of economic power that is of course meshed with political power and they will do what capitalists are suppose to do. Seek to maximize their profits by using the state to advance their private interests to the determent of the rest of society. Some will after the workers and lower classes express outrage introduce a moderate social capitalisim with a welfare state to help maintain their power. And they will continue in such a manner until they are overthrown. That is the inevitable culmination of the "free" market. Not some idealized utopia.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Those of us here in Alberta who do NOT worship at the feet of the Conservative party tend to say that we don't elect governments; we elect dictatorships.

Alberta has essentially had NO CHANGE in government since 1935 - the Social Credit Party ruled from 1935-1970, and the Conservatives from 1970-present. They are essentially the same party, except the Social Credit party is more intolerant than the Conservatives.

Well, there could potentially be a change in government in the next election with the Wildrose Alliance! Oh wait...that would be worse.

Though what are the odds that people actually care enough to dethrone Stelmach? And I don't think enough disgruntled Conservatives will sweep them to power.

 

[Abaddon]

Those will money ruling behind a smokescreen of free will

 

[Cheetah]

This is sadly true. In all too many elections, including municipal elections (Alberta has those coming up this fall), it's not about electing the people you do want; it's either electing the least-disagreeable one(s), or "voting strategically" to try to deny your least favored candidate the seat. In a multi-party system like Canada's, this can get pretty tricky in ridings with more than 3 or 4 viable candidates.

Well, a multi-party election is still waaay better than the double single-party election they have in the US, where you can vote for either the Extreme Right Party or the Even More Right Party!

In true multi-party parliaments the different parties usually have to work together to form coalitions strong enough to form a government. Still...

In our last government in Norway we had a half-commie Minister of Finance. [Yes! A real half-commie! She leads a party that split from the socialistic Labour party because they wanted even more socialism and Norway out of NATO! Her party has also become quite green recently.] This was the first time EVER that her party got into government, because they were thought to be to radical for any other party to cooperate with them.

So we got a big change from the usual Conservative or Labour Ministers who are generally pro industry and at least not to much state control in the economy, right?

And what changed? NOTHING! In fact, her party broke all their important promises, taxes were not increased and our dear greenish socialistic Minister of Finance had to go out and ask everyone to spend more to help us through the recession.

Now we have one big, radical party left that has yet to try itself in the government. A right-wing populist party. As everyone else is seen as breaking their promises, they will likely get into government within this decade if they play their cards right.

And what will happen then? If they follow through with all their promises, they will run this country into the dirt. So of course they wont! In fact, I bet, that besides a few bans to anger Muslims and closing the border a bit more, NOTHING will change yet again!

Now I need to stress this: I complain that nothing at all seems to change when we vote, but that doesn't mean everything is going badly. In fact, we seem to be doing fine. The economy is, in general, constantly improving, people get better access to all life's necessities and everything runs more or less smoothly!

But my point is that it goes like this no matter who is voted into office! Sure, some minor things might go this way or that way, but in general nothing that really matters changes! And if everything is going mostly okay, why would we want change??

So my point is simply that it doesn't matter that we vote. None of the pet issues that makes one choose one party over the other is really important or will be affected by ones vote, while all the major, important things never actually change! I said we are doing fine. But things are improving in China too! And in Vietnam! And in more or less any country throughout history, no matter the type of government! Sure, sometimes there were setbacks - great setbacks too, and sometimes things wouldn't improve for a long time, but everything seems to gradually improve no matter who or what are in charge!

We should simply just forget about democracy and most people wouldn't care one way or the other! And why should anyone, the media is already telling all of us how to vote and what to think!

In fact, let me cut through all the red tape and state it once and for all: I for one support our new Media Overlords! All hail Rupert Murdoch, World Dictator for Life!

/rant- I'm not sure anymore if I ever had a point in there...

Okay, a question: In light of all the complaints about democracy: Why do we have it? What is the special positive thing about democracy?

 

[aelf]

It was not unregulated capitalism that caused our economic woes, but heavily subsidized crony capitalism.

It's not the economic system that leads directly to the problem. Certainly, thinking about it that way makes it difficult to see the connections. Depending on what you believe, you might say that it forms the basis for (and permeates) what does lead to the problem--and that is the capitalist ideology as a package.

 

[Camikaze]

Voting is never a waste of time here. Firstly, it's compulsory, so you get fined if you don't vote. And secondly, electoral funding is based off first preference votes. So if you want to stop the domination of politics by big political parties, then the best thing you can do is go and vote for someone else, so that electoral funding gets diverted to them. I don't know what the system's like overseas, though, so maybe that's not applicable to most people.

But as for democracy, well, sure, it gets hijacked by politicians, but at least there is always a choice, and always accountability, which is hugely important in keeping those politicians within reasonable control.

 

[civverguy]

Well democracy is most consistent type of government, which is both good and bad. Its not like a president's successor can do a total 180 and change the policies and everything.

 

[Mathalamus]

Democracy usually works. however im definitely not intelligent enough to vote ( who am i supposed to vote for? and how am i supposed to who who is who and what kidn of government works, what doesn't work, all that stuff) also i may just vote for a completely random political party just to annoy people.

 

[Karalysia]

Democracy usually works. however im definitely not intelligent enough to vote ( who am i supposed to vote for? and how am i supposed to who who is who and what kidn of government works, what doesn't work, all that stuff) also i may just vote for a completely random political party just to annoy people.

Vote Socialist Party of Canada.

 

[Lord Gay]

Well thats a shame. I was hoping there was some magical answer I have not come across. This democracy lark seems to go hand in hand with Religion. You just have to "believe"


I'm not trolling, I just wanted more of a reasoned argument.. :/

Let me offer my thoughts.

I do believe that both Ds and Rs are corrupt, and I think it's pathetic that while many Americans about both parties, they also talk as if they have no other options. "Well, I don't like A, so I HAVE to vote for B, even though I think B sucks." This results in people like yourself who seem to feel "why bother?" and just stay home.

I think one of the main reasons both parties continue to do all the corrupt garbage they do is because, in part, they know they have a lock on voters. It's like the boyfriend who convinces his girl she's so ugly nobody else would have her, so she stays with him while he beats her, steals her paychecks, and screws other girls. Don't tolerate abuse!

If a certain pol is corrupt, don't vote for them. If you think the whole party is corrupt, don't vote for them. Continuing to support pols/parties even after they've been caught red-handed only tells them they can do illegal things and get away with it because, like the "ugly" girlfriend, you continue to support them and vote for them. But Rs and Ds are NOT the only parties out there. There are TONS of third parties, and I constantly tell people to find one and vote for them when they complain about R/D.

Now, I'm guessing your response would be that a third party would be a wasted vote. I disagree. New Haven, where I live, is a solidly liberal city, and we've had several Greens on our city board. Why? Because people voted for them.

I don't know if this is true for humans in general, or maybe just Americans, but it does seem that most people have a herd mentality. "Nobody else is voting for A, so I won't either. Hey, wait a minute, now everybody's voting for A, so I guess I will too." Saying third parties aren't viable so you won't vote for them is self-fulfilling.

Apparently people need a 'critical mass' moment before they'll support something, so YOU need to get out and make sure that your favorite third party is getting that support. It's not a question of whether they'll win the elections, it's a matter of getting public notice. Greens and Libertarians may not be powerful parties, but at least people have heard of them, and know of them. How many other third parties are people not even aware of?

I remember reading once that the largest expense a politician pays for in campaigning is just getting people to remember his/her name. By voting for a third party, even if you know they are unlikely to win, you're helping get their name out there. The more the name gets out, the more it will marinate in people's minds, and slowly but surely, the more people will vote for them.

Jesse Ventura became governor because Ds and Rs dismissed him as unimportant, and all those "why bother?" people actually bothered, and effected change. Even if third parties don't get elected, their arguments and proposals can force the big two to shift in that direction just to keep their voter base from slipping away, and is thus a small victory for that third party.

I mean, you're saying that the little guy can't win, so why bother. Why should any little guy take on big guys then? Why should gays bother fighting for rights in a 90% hetero world? Why not just give up? Why did the Founding Fathers resist the Crown? The odds shouldn't dissuade you, nor should you settle for a political party that is the lesser of two evils. Support what you think is right. How in the world is a country ever going to get better otherwise?

Besides, if you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain.

 

[Annex]

I dont vote, but if I did, I would surely be part of the voter apathy party.

Unless Tom Servo, or even the guy who did his voice ran for president. Then I would vote!

 

[Jabarto]

Besides, if you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain.

Not to single you out or anything, because a lot of people say this, but this needs to cease. Now. It's tired, overused, and completely and objectively wrong and I'm really sick of seeing it.

 

[Camikaze]

There are TONS of third parties, and I constantly tell people to find one and vote for them when they complain about R/D.

America doesn't seem to have sufficient incentive to vote for third parties for it to be anything but a wasted vote in anything but local elections.

 

[Karalysia]

America doesn't seem to have sufficient incentive to vote for third parties for it to be anything but a wasted vote in anything but local elections.

And long as the Single Member District Plurality system with its winner take all nature continues, then 3rd parties will never be competitve in the US.

 

[Miles Teg]

I'm so cynical that I'm sick to death of people whining about how all politicians are corrupt, the government/big business is evil, both parties are the same thing,and it's just too huge for them to do anything about.

 

[Lord Gay]

America doesn't seem to have sufficient incentive to vote for third parties for it to be anything but a wasted vote in anything but local elections.

With all due respect, did you read my post?