How Does the EU Plan to Handle Insubordinate Members?

The EU is made up of the member states, so they have to police themselves, alright? :) So it totally depends on who is doing what. Is it a decision by the commision or the council of ministers? In both the member state governments are represented and thus hae agreed to the decision they are now supposedly violating. But no, the commisison or the council of course does not have a police force. And their other tools are weak, but that is supposed to be like this. Now there‘s also the courts and the „parliament“ (it‘s not a true parliament) and all those things that have more to do with individual people.

I‘m sorry, I just have an allergic reaction to phrases like „the EU does“ or „Brussels“. Be specific and know that there‘s always a bit more to the story than what‘s in the news.
 
If you pressure insubordinate members too much there's a good chance they just leave. Given EU's conduct lately with nonsense laws maybe that wouldn't be so bad.
 
If you pressure insubordinate members too much there's a good chance they just leave. Given EU's conduct lately with nonsense laws maybe that wouldn't be so bad.

You mean that copyright law? That was rejected remember.
 
If you pressure insubordinate members too much there's a good chance they just leave. Given EU's conduct lately with nonsense laws maybe that wouldn't be so bad.

There are some Balkan countries trying to get accepted by the EU to get in. Some unresolved border issues need to be settled first.
As a Minister of Foreign Affairs of one of those countries said at the meeting in the UK this week: “countries that are in the EU have perhaps forgotten how cold it can be outside the EU”
 
In such a situation, what precisely could the EU do to force Bulgaria to stand down and comply with EU policy?
What the EU should do is emulate the US federal government’s policy of tying monetary grants to adoption of specific policies. Various US states have a (near?) universal drinking age of 21 despite the US Constitution making alcohol regulation the domain of the states because the federal government limits the dispensation of highway funds to a state unless the state has a drinking age of at least 21. The EU could adopt a similar scheme of limiting funds for those nations that has contrary policies.
 
What the EU should do is emulate the US federal government’s policy of tying monetary grants to adoption of specific policies. Various US states have a (near?) universal drinking age of 21 despite the US Constitution making alcohol regulation the domain of the states because the federal government limits the dispensation of highway funds to a state unless the state has a drinking age of at least 21. The EU could adopt a similar scheme of limiting funds for those nations that has contrary policies.

That would fit quite well with the EU. And you can quarrel about it in public :)
And there should be enough carrots to get a flexible response capacity with soft signals.

Still... normally you need carrots and a stick.
A stick more the kind of which you do not talk about that loud and frequent.
And any stick designed to keep "rebellious" members in the group under control is a bit against the general EU principle of separate countries that make cohesive & consistent multilateral deals.

My guess would be is to design a minimum set of requirements that a member has to comply to in order to keep her veto right.
A kind of frame EU constitution leaving enough room for more specified constitutions at country level.
If that would have been done the current eroding of the rule of law in Poland would have been in violation with that frame EU constitution and Poland would lose her veto right (if so judged by the EU court).

EDIT:
I think the EU, also when it does not go to a federation, can learn a lot from the US when it has to do with the demarcation between central and regional.
 
This article deals with the subject at some length.

Thanks :thumbsup:
From glancing over it a short comment
Art 2 is not specific enough, too much room for misunderstandings and shying away.
Art 7 does not prevent the deadlock when another member veto's everything (what happens now by Hungary to protect Poland)
Those 2 articles are aimed at a political decision
To avoid that you can describe Art 2 more precise and leave it to the EU court to decide if a member is violating Art 2.
(or still allow the political unanimity decision on Art 7, but in case blocked, a qualified majority can decide to start the court case)
That Art 7 is broken down in more steps seems sensible to me. Although it is a kind of workaround because Art 2 is not specific enough, it does create more room for a flexible response before Art 7, the Nuke option is triggered.
 
The whole attitude toward migration is absolutely insane, but that's what racism does to people. We have an aging population, but young people from other countries want to flood into our country? Eh, we'd better militarize the border and set up concentration camps, don't want these parasites consuming our resources.

You keep seeing racism everywhere.

The aging population argument is worse than nonsense, it's deliberately deceitful. There is youth unemployment in Europe. Migrants will not be welcome so long as that continues. These countries do not need immigrants. If you position is based on believing a lie ("immigrants are necessary") all your actions will be wrongheaded. As has been wrongheaded the position held by several political parties in Europe that are collapsing due to (among other things) their pro-immigration policies.

This thread was supposed to be a discussion on how the EU could possible deal with member states that refuse to obey EU policy. The whole migrant thing was just supposed to be a catalyst for that discussion since that seems to be the most divisive issue in the EU right now.

The same way all empires have dealt with rebellious provinces: send in the army and terrorize those populations into submission. Except the EU does not have an army - yet. It must be destroyed before the french and the germans put one together, because then it'll have another big war.

Well. Cut voting rights and lose cash. They've threatened to do it with Poland and because of that they have backed off on some of their most controversial policies. Of course, since the EU is a democracy other countries can veto, so it's not that easy.

The EU can only use really "cash" (or actually the threat of economic disruption caused by a financial freeze) as a weapon against those countries that were foolish enough to join the Euro. For the other countries the only cash controlled by the EU are the structural funds, which are a bribe to local elites (encouraging corruption is a feature). But when politics shift to an anti-EU stance those elites have rejected the bribe already.

In any case the EU now won't use any weapons against the eastern european countries, for one very simple reason: they have options, can leave. If western Europe won't trade with them, they'll trade with eastern Europe, Russia and Asia, the US, Middle East,South America... the world is vast beyond the EU. If they are pushed enough they'll desert the Greater European Co-prosperity Sphere. And they cannot be just suppressed militarily because the russians are there currently with a reorganized army capable of stepping in if the germans and french try to pull an "european civil war". The 90s when France/Germany could easily overthrow governments are over. Ukraine did not go well... But absent that "threat" they'd have already pushed through an EU army to make sure no one could leave.

There are some Balkan countries trying to get accepted by the EU to get in. Some unresolved border issues need to be settled first.
As a Minister of Foreign Affairs of one of those countries said at the meeting in the UK this week: “countries that are in the EU have perhaps forgotten how cold it can be outside the EU”

Cold indeed when the big powers of the EU break up those countries, send in weapons to arm rebel groups and finally bomb them outright...
 
Cold indeed when the big powers of the EU break up those countries, send in weapons to arm rebel groups and finally bomb them outright..

Its the Balkans ? They are always busy with their little wars, terrorism and ethnic cleansing
Besides the last dictatorship remaining in Europe wasnt going to just remove itself.
 
Nobody wants to suppress anyone. Stop thinking so pessimistically. Instead try it the other way around. It‘s a big utopian project and while the big focus has been in economies against economies or on the state government level, where Europe truly excels is for the individual citizen. America was the Land of the Free also because you could just take your car and drive to the other coast while in Europe, every border took you ages. Roaming costs, easier train travel, common product codes making the products cheaper and increasing what food is available to us. Just compare our live to the Fifties and I beg you, innonimatu, think positively!

(And yes, the EU has a deficit of democracy, it has neglected to develop the politics side, but that‘s a flaw in the system that can be taken on).
 
Well. Cut voting rights and lose cash.

That works when you have only one member state acting up, but what's the plan when you have multiple members all refusing to follow certain policies? You can't cut them all off.
 
there is no plan - policy is decided by qualified majority in many cases and unanimously for others. If a member state does not adhere to that and is in breach of EU regulations the EU commission can and will sue them in European court and ~5-10 years later they will be found in breach of said regulation and monetary penalties are assessed if the breach continues afterwards. As such nobody really cares. Losing voting rights and some payments really is only an option for single countries and is aimed at breaches in the general conditions of membership - if more than one member state do so its again toothless. The EU does not and cannot enforce policy not agreed on by everyone as it is not a central government.
 
The EU does not and cannot enforce policy not agreed on by everyone as it is not a central government.

But it wants to be. And it certainly tries to act like a central government at times. I also know there are some posters here that would like the EU to be a central government, so I'd like to hear how far they think the EU should go to bring rebellious members back in line.
 
The problem isn't so much that the EU per se wants anything in particular, individual and groups of member states want things.

What's brewing is a showdown between the states that want the EU continue on the tangent of a liberal market economy, and those that REALLY want the EU, but recast it as a collection of nationalist/populist market economies, possibly state capitalism.

The anti-nationalist bit of liberalism is in trouble because it has gradually eaten away at national cohesion (despite nationalism being part and parcel of liberalism originally), while the market bit, well, is in trouble because the pace for that has been set by the US, to some extent the UK, and has been seen to fail miserably in the last decade, meaning casting about of alternatives to the Anglosphere way of doing things here is cosidered OK/necessary.

The populists/nationalists at the mo has the vocal support of Trump and the at least tacit (at times practical) support of Putin. Both of which see the benefits of EU fractures, possibly wanting to eventually divide it.
 
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But it wants to be. And it certainly tries to act like a central government at times. I also know there are some posters here that would like the EU to be a central government, so I'd like to hear how far they think the EU should go to bring rebellious members back in line.
Those of us who do NOT want the EU to develop into a nationalist/populist/illiberal democracy (i.e. tyranny of simple majorities, nerfing constitutional protections for the rule of law etc.) would seem to think the EU missed a trick when simply assuming new member states that HAD reformed in accordance with the EU charter would NOT then roll this back and develop like Hungary has, and Poland seems to be about to.

Centralising the EU is one way of shoring this up.

The other is recasting the entire EU, to expel the non-liberals.

We don't HAVE to "all get along" at any cost, if the price is the EU developing into a an international of nationalist states — which is what Orban has presented as an end-game for his visions of the EU, which he DOES want to keep.

Anti-EU sentiment sometimes claim the EU is the realization of Hitler's dream of a united Europe. The EU as it currently is, according its charters is the exact opposite of that, since it is based on things like rule of law, human rights, subsidiarity, i.e. all manner of multilateral agreements. The alternative Orban is proposing, illiberal nation states with "popular will" as expressed by simple national majority (as interpreted by the leader) in collaboration, well, that IS pretty much the ACME of the Nazi vision of a united Europe.
 
But it wants to be. And it certainly tries to act like a central government at times. I also know there are some posters here that would like the EU to be a central government, so I'd like to hear how far they think the EU should go to bring rebellious members back in line.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle in my mind. What I personally would want and advise is to make the European Citizenry have a "skin in the game". They need to have a truly democratic access to the institutions in Brussels. Which means a true parliament. Otherwise the national governments will continue to play their two-level games. The proposed EU Budget is one step in that direction, but a very weak one.

What we will get is a governmental showdown as described by Verbose. But what one needs to prepare for now is what happens afterwards? Will there be an opportunity space (like after 1990) and who will use that best? Because what I find interesting is that the isolationist far right has organised itself EU-wide as well (but encounters clashes between themselves as soon as it is about politics, see Seehofer-Kurz). So we will see, but the situation will be stagnant for a while and then change rapidly again, that's my assumption.
 
With the Caves of Steel in my mind, and assuming we do not blow ourselves up into oblivion, some day in the future very high population densities will be possible in stability and prosperity, with a culture and socital-poltical systems in allignment with that.

But for now and any foreseeable future, 400 is imo pretty close to max sensible.
China and India also around 400. Japan, Vietnam etc a bit lower.
BTW I saw a week or so ago a recent poll published in the Global Times that 98% or so of the Chinese population was solid against immigration. Their main argument: "we did not make our sacrifice with our 1-child per family policy for 35 years for nothing".
And ofc the Global Times is no more than the informal position of the Chinese government, sending its message out in the world, for its own interests.

And the Netherlands is widely recognised as the world leader in maximising temperate climate food production per hectare.
 
not to mention some places won't allow opposite-sex children to share the same bedroom if at least one of them is older than 5?

Five?!? That's a bizarrely low limit. How early does puberty start these days? Also isn't it rather intrusive to be making rules about that sort of thing in the first place?
 
I doubt the rule forbids sharing bedroom for opposite sex relatives, like brothers and sisters.
This most likely applies only to places like dormitories, where many families share the same living space. In this case, the rule makes sense.
 
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