How good is Aristocracy really?

Definitely riverside, grassland towns trump agrarian-aristocracy, especially with a Financial trait.

I see agrarian-aristocracy as a solution to tons of irrigated plains. Or for a great person strategy/Philosophical trait where most city tiles are irrigated.
 
Vale, i wonder how your techpath is. You are talking about CoL like a beginner tech. Its 600 beakers and the cottages wont help you with your Aristocracy!
What are you doing in the meantime? And when u finally got CoL (and of course all the other worker techs :lol: ), i can either kick your butt with my 20 warriors or have outteched you widely.
With RoK and maybe a Prophet you can research at 100% and still have +10-15 Gold.
Not to mention the crazy boost with a shrine.
Aristocracy may be cool in certain situations, but it is definetely not the wonder you are talking about.
I dont know anything about comparison games, never played one. Where can i find it?
 
I already played a God King game that held up to any other comparison so far by turn 100, no need to call him out. And I also gave reasons why that wasn't a great game for comparison (unbalanced war situation, barbarian trait, etc...) but there you have it. I didn't even go for RoK which would have been crazy OP.
The Aristo games didn't even have CoL until near turn 100 so thats a very biased comparison. So what exactly are you comparing? God King to Despotism? Yeah thats a win for God King.

Go to turn 150. If you aren't significantly ahead of Aristo saves there (who all followed the rules) then that is a problem.

Even better replay and follow the imposed rules from turn 1 and go to 150. Now you can feel free to go for overpowered RoK and see if you can get it. If you can get it in your capital again, thats a bonus.

This setup was amazing for God King. Gold in Capital, good production in Capital. So go to 150. Let Aristocracy have 50 turns to play with its Civic before you declare God King the winner. My first attempt I didn't even have Aristo at turn 100 (I made a ton of mistakes). Turin got Aristo right at turn 100. My second attempt I had it around turn 90 thanks to the change in research path.

You were absolutely right to research Mining before Agriculture. That also gives a huge boost to the early game (my second attempt where I researched Mining before Agriculture came out significantly further ahead in production and research at all stages). Your very strong save in comparison to the other saves at around turn 100 was very much due to your turn 1 choice to research Mining before any other option. Expansive + Gold makes this easy but I didn't see that right away nor did anyone else for that matter.

Don't attribute that success to God King because it doesn't belong to God King. It belongs to a strong early tech path.

Lanun
Khazad
Could not disagree more about these. You don't always get a coastal start with Lanun and you can't always easily get to the coast and only build on the coast. Especially if you are the financial one, Aristocracy is huge for early game commerce while you try to expand to the coast. Later on you could switch to other options, but God King is not the end all there. Khazad is helped significantly by having a powerful commerce economy. Hello, Aristocracy.

Infernal
Sidar
Kuriotates

BTW you are right. This is a list of three civs I never play. I've tried all the civs once at least and all three of these held no appeal to me.
5. The few warriors you've produced with low production have just been completely owned militarily, nice try.
Oh come on. Be realistic here. What low production? You really think 50% extra production in your Capital is so completely ridiculous that someone who has pursued Aristocracy early cannot defend themselves? Please. Warriors are cheap.

I can glean a bit about your game settings here that might encourage the above but for me this isn't at all the optimal tech path for the vast majority of civs. One of the problems with Aristo is that it takes a lot of tech to get the economy up and running
No. it really doesn't. Go to turn 150. I would say by that point every Aristo attempt had established their economy for the most part.

The AI in FfH sucks of course so it's hard to use it to find optimal strategies, but the above would get destroyed in MP games.
If all we are talking about is single player then using what would happen in MP games as a benchmark is pretty incongruous right? Like it or not, I would venture to say the vast majority of players play Civ single player. For the single player people, spammed warriors can be more than sufficient to not only defend their empire, but also to rush a nearby neighbor after bronze working.
 
Really play it to 150 please. Earlier comparisons are really comparing Despotism to God King which is sort of a no-brainer. And honestly, if you want to try to prove that going for RoK would have been even more overpowered, please do so as an alternative to rushing. Alternatively, transition to Aristocracy and show that you are better off for the detour to Mysticism. Lots of possibilities but don't make that game about Despotism vs. God King.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320946

Make sure to go for mining first. It gives by far the best start thanks to gold and expansive leader. After that do what you like with minimal ai interaction (no attacking, no trading, no open borders). Play through turn 150.

I recommend minimal fogbusting to keep Decius hit hard by barbarians. That will make it much easier for you to claim good spots.
 
Vale, i wonder how your techpath is. You are talking about CoL like a beginner tech. Its 600 beakers and the cottages wont help you with your Aristocracy!
What are you doing in the meantime? And when u finally got CoL (and of course all the other worker techs :lol: ), i can either kick your butt with my 20 warriors or have outteched you widely.
With RoK and maybe a Prophet you can research at 100% and still have +10-15 Gold.
Not to mention the crazy boost with a shrine.
Aristocracy may be cool in certain situations, but it is definetely not the wonder you are talking about.
I dont know anything about comparison games, never played one. Where can i find it?
I didn't even see this post earlier. Just go to the comparison game and get a couple of turn 150 saves up that show this to be true. Show that you can significantly outproduce or outtech Aristocracy by turn 150 (or better yet both). Show that you can found RoK and shrine your Capital.

The only thing is I still haven't seen a single post by someone playing the comparison game within the rules that is doing better than Aristocracy at turn 150. And even with the bending of the rules with an attack of Decius, Earthling still has not demonstrated that he will be ahead of Aristocracy by turn 150. He has a long way to go techwise in 35 turns from his current position.

I see people spouting theories that God King will dominate the early game or that Code of Laws is too expensive but if thats true then why can't it be demonstrated. I tried a few games myself in the comparison game (unposted) where I researched Mysticism early. I tried Mining-Mysticism-WoTE and had a shrined Capital around turn 100 but the simple fact of the matter was that I still came out worse at turn 150 than my Aristocracy save. Maybe I don't know what I'm supposed to do once I reach that point. Basically the way that game was set up, the turn I founded Runes, I also founded my second and third cities (I had the settlers in position way before but delayed to guarantee the capital would be the holy city). I built a Pagan Temple before an Elder Council in my capital to make the Prophet pop as early as possible. I did not run Pacifism though. After I had Runes, I backfilled some worker techs (Agriculture-Calendar-Education-Animal Husbandry) then started on metals.

I tried Mining-Calendar-Mysticism-Code of Laws for an early God King transition to Aristocracy and I still ended up significantly behind my Code of Laws semi-beeline in my second Aristocracy game.

I also tried a Bronze Working beeline because with no fog busting I am consistently getting Acheron on my borders after they capture Decius's cities and the culture is really annoying. I was hoping to get Rantine to steal cities before they can get Acheron up but that fails.

I've tried many attempts but my best attempt by far was the result of my second Aristocracy attempt. The stats are all posted. I'm waiting on turn 150 God King results that do better.
 
First - I have no clue why you don't see Khazad working well with God-King. That alone is almost total ignorance. Do you always run on empty vaults or something? Build precious Dwarven Windmills? Seriously, everything about them points to running GK for a very long time even past the early game, even more so with RoK. Massive benefits to your hammers and gold, I don't see how anything else comes close. You still seem to think that Aristocracy is like a free civic - it's not two free commerce, it comes at the expense of food that can also be very important. I'd even say Luchuirp do pretty well with GK with the religion as well, but for Khazad, if it's not a no brainer, I have very little faith in anything else you say. As a side note I know Lanun aren't the strongest inclination in a very bad situation, but usually you'd get coastal/OO/Tower of Complacency which naturally fit.

Also, you're missing my point about the comparison game - from my perspective, it's over. What I would do in my game is simply switch to city-states and take over the whole continent, becoming massive/winning easily. So skip over any need for Aristocracy entirely, and it doesn't add all too much to the comparison.

If you really want me to play the comparison, I'll do it over from the start, follow along with no war/etc, provided you do the same, and with one additional rule to make things more like normal civs: building goblins is not allowed (so no wolf-riders from spawns). But I really think it's a very poor game for comparison, because of the Clan's unusual traits, and the huge amounts of luck/randomness on how well Decius does if you're not allowed to attack him. I'd think it's better to just start a new one with an economic neutral civ like Elohim or something, but again, if you do the above vale I will too.

And in fact if you really must go on like that I'll play till turn 150 just because. But again I don't think this was an optimal game for a comparison at all.
 
Are you saying that Aristocracy isn't allowed to run the slider at 0%? Your arguments get worse and worse. Why would a Khazad aristocracy have to have empty vaults? The simple fact is that because of the superior commerce of Aristocracy, they will find it easier to get their vaults filled and be able to maintain their vault levels more easily.

Not only that but Aristocracy works great with mines because of the generally more abundant food throughout your empire. Unless you can legitmately say you go for extended periods of time with no real commerce improvements in your empire, an Aristocracy will have more food available than a cottage economy.

Moreover as vault hammer bonuses are ADDITIVE the hammer bonus from God King becomes even less important. Your complete close mindedness about Aristocracy being very powerful for Khazad is proof that you have a very biased opinion and have not given the options very serious thought.

I suggest you try a game with Khazad (do Kandros Fir because if you really believe Aristocracy is horrible for them then giving yourself a financial leader should just mitigate only part of the horribleness) where you force yourself to use Aristocracy (and not retardedly with empty vaults like you apparently think an Aristocracy would do) and then say Aristocracy is bad for them or that God King is clearly the best government civic for them.

I seriously doubt you have ever used Aristocracy for any period of time if you legitimately believe that City States would be better after conquering the entire continent in the comparison game. You probably see the -1 food from farm and dismiss it out of hand. There is no way you have actually used it in a game situation and say these ridiculous things.

I look forward to your turn 150 save. If you can give a summary of production/research that would be great too. I would also love to see this with your turn 150 save:
post your economic and city advisors at 0% and 100% research
WB in CoL if you don't have it and revolt to Aristo and repost those screens again
WB in Cartography if you don't have it and revolt to City States and repost those screens one last time.
 
I strongly suspect for the points you're making you tend to play on very easy game settings, so you're used to just conquering anyone in sight. When this isn't true, you'll see why God-King is much more useful, because you're not guaranteed tons of cities and no threats or aggression against you. Also remember that it's usually VERY easy to find a great capital to start with, you can explore around with the settler and its bonuses, on most maps you don't have to settle in place immediately.

So, to discuss the Khazad, I'd think that a huge portion of your early game is incredibly subpar. When do you found your cities, and how do you keep up the vault without any civics at all to help out? If you don't found your second/third cities in REX style, which you really shouldn't due to the vault, I wonder if you just sit there with your capital in despotism out of stubbornness, because researching Mysticism can't possibly have any benefit :rolleyes: With God-King you can get your vault up very fast, get an incredible RoK city, and build anything you want.

Not only that but Aristocracy works great with mines because of the generally more abundant food throughout your empire.

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the malus to food with Aristocracy- it does NOT work great with mines, since in fact it causes a lesser amount of food in your empire compared to what you'd have without Aristocracy. So less food = fewer mines = less production, which kinda hurts the Khazad given how they have nice bonuses to production and all. Until you get Sanitation you really won't be able to feed mines all that well, and beelining Code of Laws + Sanitation together is risky enough with any civ and simply dumb with the Khazad - it ties into none of their strengths.

The one thing you are right about is that a game with Kandros Fir would do well with Aristocracy, but only because he is an excellent leader for an excellent civ in the first place. So the same game would likely do much better with early GK, and then choosing from whatever civic best suits his needs as the game goes on. But please, if you must set up an Emperor+, standard settings comparison with the Khazad, and we'll see how it goes too. I said before that I thought a Khazad comparison game would be overly unfair on Aristocracy but if you don't think so I would be glad to participate.

And yes, I have used Aristocracy to great effect in various games, which is why I realize it is useful in some situations. But this mindset of beelining the civic from the start still seems incredibly backwards, it misses out on so much else that works better.

Also, 150 save is up, I did it just since you've been going on about that game. It clearly does quite excellently in many stats, and that's on my first time through again, could have been a lot better optimizing the starts. If you want to play from there, "non-retardedly", if you can, you can also see whether it would be better to go to Aristo rather than City-States; I'm just guessing City-States is fine so not going to waste my time, I already did what you've asked enough on the game. A quick religious victory with 80% population seems very possible so just see whether Aristo or City States works better with that expansion - I think the maintenance benefits of City States are quite clear on their own.
 
I think a new comparison game is in order :mischief:

Might be better to use a more conventional civ. I propose the Bannor with Sabathiel. No unique units or buildings to skew the comparison. But that's just my suggestion.

In hindsight, my previous "no AI interaction" rule was pretty dumb. What rules should we apply?

How about no unique features, no lairs, no tribal village.

Should we pick the AI civs, or random?
 
Do you have a source of commerce? What is it. If you answer cottages, then you clearly do not understand the bonus of Aristocracy. By working more farms throughout the empire, an Aristocracy has significantly more food despite the food malus.

See here is what you apparently are missing:

For using mines:
Farms>Aristocracy Farms>Cottages

Unfortunately, under most circumstances, you will need a reliable source of commerce. And if it isn't cottages (since they are strictly worse than Aristocracy farms) and it isn't Aristocracy farms, then what is it? Trade routes? Specialists? Markets and Elder Councils?

What your posts seem to indicate is that commerce is unnecessary at all. You haven't ever addressed where you are getting commerce from. You will not always have multiple gold mines to work and the gold mines are what I consider to be the primary problem with the comparison game.
 
I think a new comparison game is in order :mischief:

Might be better to use a more conventional civ. I propose the Bannor with Sabathiel. No unique units or buildings to skew the comparison. But that's just my suggestion.

In hindsight, my previous "no AI interaction" rule was pretty dumb. What rules should we apply?

How about no unique features, no lairs, no tribal village.

Should we pick the AI civs, or random?

I think the problem you're going to face is no matter what rules you apply or what map you have set up, there will be *something* that someone will say makes the results invalid.

AIs in general add a wild-card that detracts from any real economic comparison between Aristocracy and other civics and can cause games to vary wildly. Lack of AIs will get written off as unrealistic and too easy to expand for a City-States civ. That's not even going on whether people think that starting with gold, or wine, or crabs, or wheat, or absolutely nothing at all is a fair comparison to this or that civic, or whether X Civ is really a fair point of comparison.
 
I think a new comparison game is in order :mischief:

Might be better to use a more conventional civ. I propose the Bannor with Sabathiel. No unique units or buildings to skew the comparison. But that's just my suggestion.

In hindsight, my previous "no AI interaction" rule was pretty dumb. What rules should we apply?

How about no unique features, no lairs, no tribal village.

Should we pick the AI civs, or random?

I'd say Decius of the Bannor would work better. I say we play it like a normal game without any special rules/settings. If you pop a tech/GP whatever early just say so in the report.

Starting location should be along a river with no particular cluster of high commerce resources.

I'd handpick the opponents though, so that there is some decent opposition and you can't simply walk all over over some backward civ.
My Roster would be:
1. Perpentach,
2. Falamar,
3. The Elven leader with Rai/Def (Amelanchair?)
4. Kandros Fir,
5. One of the Sheiam leaders,
6. Varn Gosam.
 
I've made a comparison game for 0.41

Settings: Standard Pangaea, Normal Speed, Emperor Difficulty, CPU players locked in Ice, No Huts, No Lairs, No Barbarians, tiles surrounding capital explored from start. Keeping with minmalism and no bias towards a particular economy - Mahala of the Doviello. However, in the zip attachment to this post I've included a scenario file which lets your pick a variety of civs (DeciusBannor, Lanun, Khazad, Grigori, Flauros, Sidar, Svart, Hippus). World spells are disabled so that the Lanun/calabim don't nuke you. If you use the scenario you'll have to open the worldbuilder, delete the Doviello and place your own units in the starting position. I presume everyones used the worldbuilder enough to know how to do this?

Here is a pic of the start

Spoiler :
testgame3.png



And here is a link to the 40z version which has only the Doviello.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8093947&postcount=51

Edit: I'm dumb and forgot to attach the files
 
I agree 100% with earthling. You mentioned very good points. But you will never convice vale, he is a maniac.
And to the comparison game. It has a ridiculous starting city for aristocarcy. All the flood plains will give you 4/0/3 even without sanitation.
Show me your great strategy with only grassland or better with a plains-start.
I am curious about your great economy with all the 2/0/3 tiles.
But of course you can run plenty of mines for production as well :lol: .
And the gold ressource was a big benefit to you, cause it lets you research CoL much faster.
And what you are saying about epic game is brainless. You seem to expand very fast, to 4-5 cities with Despotism. In Epic, you just do not have the money to research at such a deficit. If you beeline Col you will have to research it for 60-70 turns. And all without elder councils and markets^^ (which u find unnessecary,lol).

Ozzy (thanks again for your great map, although it is unplayable even on my good computer due to turn times in the endgame) made the best point

Which means Aristocracy is a situational strategy, not a universal one.

This is just the truth. There are situations where Aristocracy is damn great (floodplains, rivers,lots of land to grab).
But the majority is different (Plains, few rivers, Elven civs, Deity AIs grabbing all land, game speed and so on).
And you are always talking about Turn 150. What about Turn 300? Your cities will be significantly smaller due to lower food production. With a happy cap of 14 of course, it wont matter at all.
And one last thing. Why shall we prove that GK is much better and will outproduce u widely. Its you who is spamming to everyone Aristocracy is the one and only truth, anything else is stupid/worthless/noobish.
So its your turn, not ours. Show us on a suboptimal start that you will perform much better than we can.
And this time without gold, millions of fresh water tiles and a barbarian civ not being able to build the GL.
 
I'd say Decius of the Bannor would work better. I say we play it like a normal game without any special rules/settings. If you pop a tech/GP whatever early just say so in the report.

Starting location should be along a river with no particular cluster of high commerce resources.

I'd handpick the opponents though, so that there is some decent opposition and you can't simply walk all over over some backward civ.
My Roster would be:
1. Perpentach,
2. Falamar,
3. The Elven leader with Rai/Def (Amelanchair?)
4. Kandros Fir,
5. One of the Sheiam leaders,
6. Varn Gosam.

On second thought, Organized might be a bad idea. It affects civic upkeep and city maintenance cost, as well as favours early CoL. It benefits all civics, but the problem is that it benefits each civic differently. Which would make comparison too difficult.

How about Keelyn? Creative benefits every civic the same way. She starts with Agriculture, which is a basic tech you'd want no matter what civic you choose anway.

As for settings, I think we should at least remove unique features. There's too much potential for skewing comparisons.

I'm fine with handpicking leaders, we should try to balance alignments though.
 
I don't really see the problem with organized. It's true that code of laws becomes a bit better with half-price courthouses, but courthouses are a very low priority building in the early game and even late game they are nerfed quite strongly compared to BTS.

I assume you want an unrestricted leaders Keelyn? Because the Balseraphs are great with a farm economy due to multiple early ways to raise their happy cap.

Everyone benefits the same from unique features and the only really gamechanging ones are the Remnants of Patria and/or Yggdrasil in the starting area. Everyone has the same access to them, so I do not really see a problem there either. But if you want to turn them off it's not a problem.
 
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