How Many Turns Is Ideal For An Epic Mod?

[Ozymandias]

There are so many excellent units around these days (Thank you Wyrmshadow, Sandris, Imperator, everyone else* - you know who you are! - and RHODIE GET BACK TO WORK ) that to even skim the tip of the iceberg of the best units would see any particular unit in play potentially in small numbers for a short amount of time.

SO - that being the crux of the matter, kindly attend to the poll.

Best As Always,

Oz

*Edit: I should have mentioned TopGun, Gary Childress, Micaelus, probably others by name ... Have I mention that I've lobbied on and off for years for a smilie of a guy smacking his own forehead?

-O.

 

[Agent327]

That depends on the starting date.

 

[Ozymandias]

That depends on the starting date.

And ending date . 1071 - 2050 CE. There are a host of reasons why I chose that particular date; irrespective, it covers edged weapons and animal power to electromagnetic rail weapons and MHD turbines.

-Oz

 

[Vuldacon]

OZ.... The Number of Turns in a MOD is also part of what the creator wants and needs for the Particular Game. This should be considered along with all other things for the game.
Some can be short while others need to be longer. All depends on what is wanted and needed for the specific Game.

IN most CIV Games, the late turns are each long due to so much going on so even a short number of turns can require long play times.

If you have a Huge Game that involves many CIVs and covers long periods of time then you would probably want to increase the turns in order to accommodate an appropriate amount of time for all that it covers.

IF you have a game that does not cover a long period of time but you want to slow down the game play where Techs are not discovered fast and there is more time to play with specific Units and the Era, you would also probably want to set more turns.

Bottom Line... Set turns as You believe your Game needs and what You prefer

 

[Ozymandias]

OZ.... The Number of Turns in a MOD is also part of what the creator wants and needs for the Particular Game. This should be considered along with all other things for the game.
Some can be short while others need to be longer. All depends on what is wanted and needed for the specific Game.

IN most CIV Games, the late turns are each long due to so much going on so even a short number of turns can require long play times.

If you have a Huge Game that involves many CIVs and covers long periods of time then you would probably want to increase the turns in order to accommodate an appropriate amount of time for all that it covers.

IF you have a game that does not cover a long period of time but you want to slow down the game play where Techs are not discovered fast and there is more time to play with specific Units and the Era, you would also probably want to set more turns.

Bottom Line... Set turns as You believe your Game needs and what You prefer

Ah, ever the truly wise one .

I agree with all you've said, yet of course want others beside myself to enjoy the mod.

I know the span of technology (weapons systems etc.) I'm covering, and roughly know how many turns it takes to fully field and play with an army of a particular tech level to feel that one hasn't rushed through, say, the entire age of sail.

So the data I'm seeking really is how many different distinct tech levels I can accommodate without the game simply going on too long.

All Ye Best,

Oz

 

[General 666]

Our Epics have usually much more units included than the Firaxis generic version. So the timeline should be streched too. If not ,too many units would become obsolete before the player is able to build a reasonable amount of them.
Too long games (700+) have a very good chance to bore the player. That`s why I have voted for a 600 turn game.

 

[Ozymandias]

Our Epics have usually much more units included than the Firaxis generic version. So the timeline should be streched too. If not ,too many units would become obsolete before the player is able to build a reasonable amount of them.
Too long games (700+) have a very good chance to bore the player. That`s why I have voted for a 600 turn game.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but still want input.

One reason that I like six hundred turns is that it divides (notionally) nicely among 4 eras. So 150 turn eras as opposed to 110 - which is conveniently easy math to make sure that, e.g., total tech costs per era don't become unbalanced.

Thanks,

Oz

 

[Civinator]

At present CCM has the standard length (440) what I think is still pretty long. Besides the arguments that units should appear on the map and play a considerable role in gameplay, so they don´t become obsolete during production, there is another point to consider:

If the time scale is stretched too much, the more modern units will never see the game, as a lot of players will conquer the world with units of the first (and may be early second) era. So units not only can become obsolete by upgrading intervalls, that are too short (which could be cured with more game turns), but they also can become obsolete by easily winning the game too early. And gameplay should be interesting until the later turns of the game. For me it´s deadly, if I have the sure feeling I have won the game but somewhere there is a small civ I only can reach in dozends of turns, but when I reach it, that civ has no chance. At that point my game would be finished. So the true art for a mod or a scenario is, to have a good chance for strong enemies until the last phases of the time scale of the mod/scenario. The larger the number of turns for a mod, the smaller the chance that the last turns in the timescale are interesting (or even used).

 

[General 666]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but still want input.

One reason that I like six hundred turns is that it divides (notionally) nicely among 4 eras. So 150 turn eras as opposed to 110 - which is conveniently easy math to make sure that, e.g., total tech costs per era don't become unbalanced.

Thanks,

Oz

To keep the 4 (FOUR) eras in mind ,while figuring the turn lenght out ,seems to be clever in any way !

Bye
General 666

 

[Ozymandias]

At present CCM has the standard length (440) what I think is still pretty long. Besides the arguments that units should appear on the map and play a considerable role in gameplay, so they don´t become obsolete during production, there is another point to consider:

If the time scale is stretched too much, the more modern units will never see the game, as a lot of players will conquer the world with units of the first (and may be early second) era. So units not only can become obsolete by upgrading intervalls, that are too short (which could be cured with more game turns), but they also can become obsolete by easily winning the game too early. And gameplay should be interesting until the later turns of the game. For me it´s deadly, if I have the sure feeling I have won the game but somewhere there is a small civ I only can reach in dozends of turns, but when I reach it, that civ has no chance. At that point my game would be finished. So the true art for a mod or a scenario is, to have a good chance for strong enemies until the last phases of the time scale of the mod/scenario. The larger the number of turns for a mod, the smaller the chance that the last turns in the timescale are interesting (or even used).

My goal in the play balance is to have an asymmetrical progression in many ways: military, economic, cultural, scientific. In 1071 Europe, for instance, there is little money, offensive units hold sway, yet (1) are readily thwarted by fortifications (castles) and (2) counter-measures which evolve in several ways, some tied directly to economic/social development: Urban Charters allow Pikemen, followed by Close Order Drill, while the offensive develops in counterpoint, with chainmail yielding to platemail and deadlier cavalry. Yet Europe is crowded, forests must be cleared to found cities, and 1st Era technological advancement in that part of the world will almost certainly overtake Islam and the Asian Civs, although Islam just might hold out against Christendom in Iberia, likewise the Byzantine Empire against the Turks.

Similarly, many Improvements/Wonders are Government or Era=None specific, and intended to enter play to show the shifting of wealth over time, and in some interesting ways.

Anyway, I call it The Forces Of History, and my goal is an interesting game which utilizes the game mechanics in some unusual ways to, as far as the engine permits, simulate the historical forces which shaped Civs (although I wouldn't recommend actually playing the Abysssinians-cum-Ethiopians, if you did you would see why Mussolini was met with men wielding spears).

I'll start a proper thread on it some decade soon, and will solicit, during the alpha testing, commentary on the relative strengths and weaknesses endemic to any Civ at any time (I have a funny feeling that, oh, say, Blue Monkey might considerably enlighten me on the dispositions of certain Civs and their militaries ).

... More to follow ...

Best,

Oz

 

[Vuldacon]

Ah, ever the truly wise one

Too Funny OZ

Seriously, I do know that you are "Fishing" to gain more insight into what players Like and "Think"they want in a Game.

Still, This is not really something anyone can answer Accurately unless they play the Game in question. The reasons are many and have everything to do with the entire Game.

Looking at the Poles... it appears that something between standard and Long is the winner and that is probably correct.

As for a Long Game being won Early, That too depends on Game play Factors, Unit settings and City strengths and More.
While I can agree that providing too much time with too many units can create an early win, this can be prevented but that is a Monster to control.

Personally, I think it is Great to have some Eras last Longer for Game play and enjoyment of the units and things of that time period.
Because You understand what you want to do with your Game, YOU are the Best person to make the settings in all things.

... I am quite certain you will digest the Poles and Feedback then add it all to your Own personal thoughts, knowledge and better understanding of your Game and be more sure of what you probably Already Knew before setting the Pole

 

[Ozymandias]

@ Vuldacon - I suppose what I'm really trying to divine is how long people want to play at any given technicological level - "too short" "too long" and "just right" are obviously very subjective, but I very much want to divide the Eras into a roughly equal number of turns (tricky; yes, I know) AND subdivide those Eras roughly into sub-Eras with each sub-Era representing the dominance of a given military technological level.

Right now I'm tinkering with a 3-4-4-3 set of sub-Eras. Looking at it from the "Grunt" Infantry Line POV, this means roughly:

Era 1 ("Medieval")

• Chainmail
• Platemail
• Gunpowder + Melee ("Musket & Pike")

Era 2 ("Age Of Discovery")

• Flintlock and Bayonet
• Rifle-Musket
• Breech-Loading Rifle
• Primitive Machine Guns

Era 3 ("Industrial Age")

• Trench Infantry
• Shock Infantry (gotta use Wyrm's flamethrower anims somewhere )
• Motorized Infantry (Trucks)
• Mechanized Infantry (Panzergrenadiers - half-tracks)

Era 4 ("Today & Tomorrow")

• APC Infantry
• MICV Infantry
• Future Weapons System Infantry

... And the unanswered question remains, How many turns per sub-Era?

My instinct is 840 turns, giving every one of the 14 sub-Eras 20 turns each for Building Units; Amassing Forces; Active Combat (total is obviously 60 turns per sub-Era).

Thoughts Anyone?

Best,

Oz

 

[El Justo]

600 is about right, i'd think. however, like others have duly noted, it very much depends on what the creator wants in there and a host of other things.

as a caveat, i'd add that if trade is enabled, turn times could theoretically dragggg as the mod progresses. but again, if the intent is to include a set no. of eras and the introduction of particular technologies, then by all means, that is most certainly the creator's prerogative.

now, from my own experience w/ scenarios...which are in essence era-specified mods...due to the sheer length of them, i usually try to trim it down some...or at least try to get it to a digestable amount of turns. and the drop-dead no. for me has usually been about (or to keep it under) 600.

a few other things i've considered wrt the total amout of turns:

Klyden has always reminded me that there are few who will actually get to say, turn no. 550 and so on. and this is a valid point imho. now, this is not to say that folks won't be playing or that it's a diss on the popularity etc. conversely, it's the fact that unless the victory conditions are utterly difficult, vicotry will have been had prior to that and the very back end of a scenario/mod will be rarely seen. and i can attest to this, at least in my own experiences w/ my stuff (and reading the hundreds and hundreds of play reports over the years by our fellow cfc'ers).

lastly, and perhaps most importantly for me as a developer/modder, i take the total amount of turns needed for a scenario/mod and divide it by the number of techs...and toss in a "minimum/maximum" ratio to come up w/ an actual and finite amount. this seems trivial, i realize. however, it's important for me as a developer b/c it can help to allot a set amount of turns to each era and its techs according to the rough estimate of "min/max" times. apologies if it all sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo but i use this method to nail down my total turn amounts for my stuff and it seems to work well (ie total amount of techs, preferred tech discovery rate).

 

[Vuldacon]

My instinct is 840 turns, giving every one of the 14 sub-Eras 20 turns each for Building Units; Amassing Forces; Active Combat (total is obviously 60 turns per sub-Era).

That would certainly be enough turns to allow plenty of time to play each Era. I generally think "Games within Games" concerning Eras with many turns.
IF the Game play is Good and not easy to gain an Early Win, it should provide Great Results.

 

[BadKharma]

Generally I like epic games that are longer. As Vuldacon noted the key is making sure an early win is difficult to impossible.

 

[tom2050]

600 turns is long though, if going by weeks, that comes out to around 12 years of game time. I could not ever picture myself actually playing any single game for 12 years (gametime of course). Chances are the world would be completely conquered by then (under normal game circumstances). I believe my normal huge map C3C epic games were usually finished around 300-400 turns, in which I was ready to be done with that game.

Regardless, I can't speak for everyone's preference, but I would guess most games don't go past the 400-500 turn mark. Games need to go quick enough to hold interest, while not being so long (with too many techs) that it feels like a chore. My opinion at least

Tom

 

[Micaelus]

My two cents may be worth even less (inflation and such, or just the diminished marginal return of yet another person saying similar things without having a saving idea to add) but I figured I'd add it any how...

I enjoy long involved Civ games. Probably why I enjoy Civ in the first place. If I could be guaranteed to not a) have destroyed most others OR b) not have been destroyed myself, before the last era, then planning for the lengthy epic would be fantastic. From my experience (now I'm no master player, mind you) even with jumping difficulty levels I seem to either win early or be wiped out. I don't mind this too much in most of the Mods I play (MEM, Anno Domini, LotM, Warhammer) because they are roughly in the same level of tech development and I have similar toys to play with throughout. When playing the un-Modded epic or Rhye's or some such (back in ancient history), I do remember being annoyed when I've conquered the world by the middle of the third era.

So, my bottom line is if you are planning a truly epic 'epic', I think the discussion needs to turn to: how do we make sure the game lasts that long? My guess is that clever folk have worked out ways...and I know I for one would love to hear them

 

[Ozymandias]

So, my bottom line is if you are planning a truly epic 'epic', I think the discussion needs to turn to: how do we make sure the game lasts that long? My guess is that clever folk have worked out ways...and I know I for one would love to hear them

By following history and not underestimating the effects of new weapons technologies, ideally producing an ebb and flow, punctuated by the occasional shake-up (e.g., the arrival of the Mongol hordes).

@El Justo amigo - My approach is to take the total research costs (and abilities) in each Era from the standard game and keep them proportional in the mod.

I'm trying very hard not to mess with relative production costs. E.g., unit costs will be linear whereas combat values will most definitely not. (@Vuldacon - this indeed leads to "games-within-games".)

I also think the Space Race and Diplomatic victories only serve to help make the bitter-end-game even more boring than it actually is, and the constraints "organically" built into the mod should make the others challenging hopefully well into the 4th Era.

My only regrets will derive from the limits of the Civ engine (i.e., no America, although there are now two North American Civs - Anasazi (historically extinct ca. 1200 CE) and Cahokia (RIP ca. 1400 CE). All New World Civs (those two plus Azrec, Maya, Inca) will essentially be a full Era behind in tech development from the Old World Civs. They will sneak up on Old Wold developments after that (as an aside, they will, until ca. the 17th Century, have 1 HP less than the Old World Civs to represent the ravages of disease).

Finally, Why 1071? -

1. Given that this roughly coincides with the end of the world-wide dark ages, nearly the full gamut of technological development can take place.
2. The Norman Conquest of 1066 – therefore England exists, and the last resistance to Norman rule – the Saxon leader Hereward the Wake – finally yielded in 1071
3. The northern portion of China has fallen to Barbarian invaders, reducing “China” to the southern Song Dynasty and therefore a size roughly commensurate with the rest of the human player Civs.
4. Baghdad’s fallen to the Turks, giving the Turks a decent and realistic starting position.
5. The Vikings, after their defeats at Clontarf in Ireland in 1014 and at Stamford Bridge in England in 1066, are no longer a major power.
6. The Chinese had institutionalized a form of communalism which, combined with Confucianism and Taoism, helped lay the foundation of the uniqueness of Chinese culture.
7. At this moment in time, Central Europe isn’t crowded with powers – Bulgaria and Poland are temporarily not in existence, and the Magyars (Hungary) have converted to Christianity (religion does factor into the first Era).
8. As mentioned, the indigenous North American Anasazi and Cahokian civilizations are in existence. I feel that the inclusion of these civilizations are critical, from a game-play point-of-view, as North America is now both occupied and contested, although either Civ will likely be overcome by any Old World invaders.
9. This is a historical hair’s breadth before the Byzantine disaster at Manzikert. Given issues of play balance, I feel it’s important for the Byzantine Empire to control Anatolia (modern Turkey).

What do you think, and thank you all for the input to date!

Best,

Oz

 

[Vuldacon]

Oz... IF I had a game with one Million Army Ants that were set with 1 attack and 1 Defense, I could wipe out many, if not all, stronger units and capture Cities easily.

Game Play is a combination of Everything in the game. Because the Creator has a purpose and intentional ideas about how the game should play..... it is only fitting that the game Creator also set the number of turns. This is all part of the Game Creation process.

Sure we can try to gain insight about what Most players tend to play but IF we create a game that is different than what people have played and it is Good... it is worth the effort.

Opinions change with gained experiences... this said, the Pole and feedback to your question will have to be taken as Worthy and also considered as partial because you will only be gaining Opinions based on the level of play and experience of anyone who Votes or submits an opinion.

IF you can Prevent early wins... then go for longer turn times but if not, stay within 450 to 650 turns.

 

[Civinator]

Oz... IF I had a game with one Million Army Ants that were set with 1 attack and 1 Defense, I could wipe out many, if not all, stronger units and capture Cities easily.

You would get a MUA (Maximum units Allowed) when exceeding 8192 Army Ant units.