How should the West contain Russia?

Please, read again what I wrote. ;)
Political opinion IS factor whether one gets citizenship or not, because taking citizenship is voluntary. I repeat - if one has neither enough good will nor respect, if one "dreams of Estonian SSR", then one simply does not take it. I believe it fair to say that one does not deserve it either in this case, but that is not really relevant.

OK, if thats your view, then fair enough. could you list some of the other views you think should bar people form holding citizenship?
 
hold on now I thought you said they should have citizenship once they learned Estonian? get your fascist arguments straight you xenophobe

And you better shut up, you're way off as almost always.

I can perfectly understand whya the Estonians and Latvians don't want to recognize Russian as an official language. It's pretty easy to grasp, once you stop being focused on your narrow point of view, look around and see the bigger picture.

I'll try to make it easy to understand for you. In general, big imperialist nationalist states use the most loyal population as their power base. When such a state occupies some small country with a population resisting its attempts to destroy its culture and independent mentality, it usually decides to move its own people there in order to "dilute" the local culture and use them as agents supporting gradual assimilation of the subjugated nation.

This is basically what was happening in the Czech lands during Hapsburg rule (or in Ireland during the English rule). The German-speaking minority was clearly the upper class. German culture was favoured, while the Czech language and heritage was being suppressed. The goal was to assimilate the Czech elites, make them speak German and adopt German culture and German "mindset" and then gradually assimilate the rest of the population. It was working until the 19th century, during which the Czech elites successfuly attempted to promote the Czech culture. "National revival" (as it is called here) happened and the German dreams of dominating the country were wrecked.

So they adopted a new strategy. They focused on the already "germanized" areas and tried to make them more compact, perhaps even spread them a little, and "contain" the Czechs inland and on the countryside (all major cities had large German populations). After WW1 and the collapse of Austria-Hungary, Czechoslovakia granted the Germans all the rights you people now want from the Estonians and Latvians. German was recognized as the official language and German people had all the citizen rights like the other nationalities. But the Germans, just like the Russians in Estonia, refused to reconcile with the Czechs. While many Czechs learned German, they refused to learn the "inferior Slavic language" and try to get more familiar with the Czech culture. They looked to Germany for inspiration, they never accepted the independence of Czechoslovakia as a fact they had to accept.

Nazi Germany exploited the weakness. As absurd as it looks now, Hitler managed to convince the rest of the world that the Czechs were in fact oppressing the poor minority Germans (which was not true at all) and he gradually forced the Czech government to grant them more and more autonomy, which in turn only made them more rebellious and incooperative. In the end, as you surely know, he annexed the German regions and later the rest of Czechoslovakia.

It's not hard to understand why the Estonians and Latvians don't want to go down this road, and the recent conflict in Caucasus will only serve to strengthen this feeling.

The whole thing is of course not fully comparable to the Czech experience. Germans had been living in Bohemia and Moravia for many centuries. The Russian minority in Baltic countries is fairly new. Soviet Union (the red form of Russia) tried to crush the Baltic patriotic resistance to their rule by sending thousands of Estonians and Latvians to forced labour camps and importing ethnic Russians, who were expected to "dilute" the local culture. It would have worked, if it lasted for longer: Estonians and Latvians are small nations, much smaller than the Czechs, while Russia is overwhelmingly bigger and stronger.

Estonians and Latvians are afraid, that the more "rights" they'll give to the Russian minority, the harder it will get to make them accept the independence of these countries and the more likely it will become, that one day Russia will step in and exploit this minority as the 5th column to undermine and eventually occupy these countries again. They decided that a gradual assimilation of the Russians in their countries is the safest option in the long term.
 
OK, if thats your view, then fair enough. could you list some of the other views you think should bar people form holding citizenship?

You want me to organize a poll amongst local Russians "Why haven't you taken citizenship?"
As far as I have asked, I have heard following basic answers:
a) But I have!
b) Because then I'd need visa to go to Russia and this is too troublesome...
c) I am too lazy to take the exam. WTH do I need this Estonian citizenship for anyway?
d) Citizenship of what state? In 20 years you'll be part of Russia again, mwahaha. (with variation: I do not want to get shot for becoming a traitor/nazi)

EDIT: @ Winner: Great post!
 
Could someone please explain to me why the former Warsaw Pact-made-EU is having such a hard time getting over the past?

Because the past is around the corner, lurking in the shadows and waiting to snatch you once you get too complacent.

I hear this from Western Europeans a lot, and it proves they need to learn more about the situation the ex-Soviet countries are in (it doesn't really apply to my country, Hungary, Slovakia etc., but we're certainly in better position to understand it).

I mean yeah sure the Soviets did terrible things, but the world's still changed and will keep changing whether you accept it or not.

See, this is a profound misunderstanding among the Western Europeans. Estonians, Latvians and others have changed. They have reformed into rapidly modernizing countries with fastly growing economies, where democracy has taken a firm hold.

The problem is that the heir of the Soviet Union has not changed that much. Western Europeans believe that with the collapse of the USSR all the threat it posed to the world suddenly evaporated. Do you see how silly that notion is?

The countries which border with Russia simply can't afford to ignore this threat. It may seem distant to the Western European, even to Central Europeans, but it is very very real and immediate danger to them.

To my demise, the only Russians I regularily hear something about are the ones on this forum, but from what I've read in their varying opinions it doesn't seem like most Russians are hell-bent on recolonising the Baltic States.

Nobody thought the Russians would openly use brutal military force against another country only 5 months ago and yet that's exactly what happened. As I said earlied, while the Western and Central Europeans can afford the luxury of downplaying and ignoring the Russian bear, the countries which lie in its reach must be more vigilant. How dare you criticize them for that?

So please, get over it. At the least, try to make sure it looks like you're the more honourable in this argument and treat Russians, so long as they can articulate themselves decently in the Estonian, Latvian, whatever language, (while still having the possibility of reading official documents in their native Russian) as regular citzens instead of planning to force them into second class fake citzenship just because of what some idiots in government did 20+ years ago.

That's totally not what's really happening - and if you believe in it, it's the same situation as I described in my reply to RRWiggum. The Russian government wants you to believe that, just like the German government wanted the world to believe that the Czechs oppressed the German minority. The true situation is very different. Or do you honestly believe these countries would be allowed to join the EU if they had not complied with the very strict EU rules regarding the stability and quality of democracy?
 
You want me to organize a poll amongst local Russians "Why haven't you taken citizenship?"
As far as I have asked, I have heard following basic answers:
a) But I have!
b) Because then I'd need visa to go to Russia and this is too troublesome...
c) I am too lazy to take the exam. WTH do I need this Estonian citizenship for anyway?
d) Citizenship of what state? In 20 years you'll be part of Russia again, mwahaha. (with variation: I do not want to get shot for becoming a traitor/nazi)

EDIT: @ Winner: Great post!

no, you misunderstand, I'm asking you what political opinions you think should disbar someone form Estonian citizenship
 
And you better shut up, you're way off as almost always.

I can perfectly understand whya the Estonians and Latvians don't want to recognize Russian as an official language. It's pretty easy to grasp, once you stop being focused on your narrow point of view, look around and see the bigger picture.

I'll try to make it easy to understand for you. In general, big imperialist nationalist states use the most loyal population as their power base. When such a state occupies some small country with a population resisting its attempts to destroy its culture and independent mentality, it usually decides to move its own people there in order to "dilute" the local culture and use them as agents supporting gradual assimilation of the subjugated nation.

This is basically what was happening in the Czech lands during Hapsburg rule (or in Ireland during the English rule). The German-speaking minority was clearly the upper class. German culture was favoured, while the Czech language and heritage was being suppressed. The goal was to assimilate the Czech elites, make them speak German and adopt German culture and German "mindset" and then gradually assimilate the rest of the population. It was working until the 19th century, during which the Czech elites successfuly attempted to promote the Czech culture. "National revival" (as it is called here) happened and the German dreams of dominating the country were wrecked.

So they adopted a new strategy. They focused on the already "germanized" areas and tried to make them more compact, perhaps even spread them a little, and "contain" the Czechs inland and on the countryside (all major cities had large German populations). After WW1 and the collapse of Austria-Hungary, Czechoslovakia granted the Germans all the rights you people now want from the Estonians and Latvians. German was recognized as the official language and German people had all the citizen rights like the other nationalities. But the Germans, just like the Russians in Estonia, refused to reconcile with the Czechs. While many Czechs learned German, they refused to learn the "inferior Slavic language" and try to get more familiar with the Czech culture. They looked to Germany for inspiration, they never accepted the independence of Czechoslovakia as a fact they had to accept.

Nazi Germany exploited the weakness. As absurd as it looks now, Hitler managed to convince the rest of the world that the Czechs were in fact oppressing the poor minority Germans (which was not true at all) and he gradually forced the Czech government to grant them more and more autonomy, which in turn only made them more rebellious and incooperative. In the end, as you surely know, he annexed the German regions and later the rest of Czechoslovakia.

It's not hard to understand why the Estonians and Latvians don't want to go down this road, and the recent conflict in Caucasus will only serve to strengthen this feeling.

The whole thing is of course not fully comparable to the Czech experience. Germans had been living in Bohemia and Moravia for many centuries. The Russian minority in Baltic countries is fairly new. Soviet Union (the red form of Russia) tried to crush the Baltic patriotic resistance to their rule by sending thousands of Estonians and Latvians to forced labour camps and importing ethnic Russians, who were expected to "dilute" the local culture. It would have worked, if it lasted for longer: Estonians and Latvians are small nations, much smaller than the Czechs, while Russia is overwhelmingly bigger and stronger.

Estonians and Latvians are afraid, that the more "rights" they'll give to the Russian minority, the harder it will get to make them accept the independence of these countries and the more likely it will become, that one day Russia will step in and exploit this minority as the 5th column to undermine and eventually occupy these countries again. They decided that a gradual assimilation of the Russians in their countries is the safest option in the long term.

I'm not going to address individual points in this rant, save to say that if you seriously think Russia is trying to reintergrate the Baltic states (Part of the EU!!!!) into the Russian federation, then you are a conspiracy theorist on the grandest scale imaginable, and the fact about cultural assimilation of foreigners, regardless of how and why they arrived in your country is not something the state can enforce, it never works and it ownt in this case, i think its perfectly obvious to anyone but the dimmest bulbs out there that the Estonian govt does not want to make the ethnic Russian populations feel at home, but rather to forcibly Estonianise them.

My country was colonised bgy a far stronger neighbouring power; in 1922, we probably could have decided to force any people with positive feelings towards Britain to leave, instead we didnt, we gave them a place on our national flag (the orange represents northern protestants) in the hope they can intergrate into our society, and if Ireland is ever reunified they will be as welcome as anyone, thats why we allow orange oprder parades in Dublin, because regardless of how these people got to be on the island, its now their home as much as it is ours, and even if they do eventually come under the jurisdiction of Dublin, we will have no right to dictate to them their cultural or political beliefs.

try and learn form it. soem countries can give up hiostorical grudges, however in the Baltic states and Poland esecially, it seem to be a national pastime to keep xenophobic hatred going as long as is possible.
 
My country was colonised bgy a far stronger neighbouring power; in 1922, we probably could have decided to force any people with positive feelings towards Britain to leave, instead we didnt, we gave them a place on our national flag

...and as we all know, Ireland has been quiet and happy place ever since...
Hallelujah!

... I might add, that at the same year you speak of, namely 1922, Estonia became a place of refuge for many Russians who escaped from Soviet terror. While we admittedly did not gave them a place on our flag, we sure never made them to leave. EDIT: in case someone wonders what happened to them - those who failed to escape into West and were caught here by Soviets in 1940 were among the first to be executed.

In spite of all this, I'd include you in my prayers, asking God to send over 1-1,5 million Somalian or Iraqi refugees, so that you "could make them feel at home", were it not unfair against other poor souls, who are already being punished by being forced to share this unlucky island with you...
 
...and as we all know, Ireland has been quiet and happy place ever since...
Hallelujah!

would it have been a happier and less violent place if we had tried to take citizenship form anoyne with Loyalist views? Would it have been happier if we introduced an Irish language test for citizenhip applied to people of British descent?
 
would it have been a happier and less violent place if we had tried to take citizenship form anoyne with Loyalist views? Would it have been happier if we introduced an Irish language test for citizenhip applied to people of British descent?

Unfortunately, Ireland is still divided, and will be for the foreseeable future IMO. Especially with the Unionist hardliners continuing to backslide and prevaricate on powersharing.;)
 
would it have been a happier and less violent place if we had tried to take citizenship form anoyne with Loyalist views? Would it have been happier if we introduced an Irish language test for citizenhip applied to people of British descent?

All I am saying is: stop trying to set some "glorious example", which falls far and short of being anything like a good one upon any closer examination. The fact that the Irish have spent the last century fighting amongst themselves like a pack of dogs can sadly not be used to demonstrate validity of any of your points.
 
Unfortunately, Ireland is still divided, and will be for the foreseeable future IMO. Especially with the Unionist hardliners continuing to backslide and prevaricate on powersharing.;)

Yes but the point is it would have been much, much worse had the Irish govt adopted the attitude Estonia has towards ethnic Russians towards people with the 'wrong' political opinions.
 
All I am saying is: stop trying to set some "glorious example", which falls far and short of being anything like a good one upon any closer examination. The fact that the Irish have spent the last century fighting amongst themselves like a pack of dogs can sadly not be used to demonstrate validity of any of your points.

We have a decent working rleationship with the UK, because we can forget the past, ye are still trying to isolate and ostracise ethnic Russians because ye cant. We are a far better example of how to reconcile than Estonia is.
 
"Yes but the point is it would have been much, much worse had the Irish govt adopted the attitude Estonia has towards ethnic Russians towards people with the 'wrong' political opinions."
This is your opinion. It may or may not be right, but there is absolutely nothing to prove it.

"We have a decent working rleationship with the UK, because we can forget the past, ye are still trying to isolate and ostracise ethnic Russians because ye cant.
You have a decent working relationship because UK is one of the oldest democracies in the world, unfortunately uncomparable to Russia in this aspect. UK has willingly released a number of its former colonies and has abandoned its aspirations as colonial power. Russia has border disputes with most of its neighbors, and as for its stance towards separatists in itself, Chechnya is great example.

"We are a far better example of how to reconcile than Estonia is."
Ahem. How many dead and injured in terrorist attacks and civil riots in Ireland from 1922 (you can split by periods of 18 years if you wish)?
Now compare this number with Estonia from 1991. And excuse me while I am laughing my ass off.
 
I'm not going to address individual points in this rant,

Sure you're not... :hammer:

save to say that if you seriously think Russia is trying to reintergrate the Baltic states (Part of the EU!!!!) into the Russian federation, then you are a conspiracy theorist on the grandest scale imaginable,

I am saying that the inhabitants of the Baltic states must count with the possibility that the Russians might attempt to occupy them again in the future with the willing help of the existing Russian minority. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...

and the fact about cultural assimilation of foreigners, regardless of how and why they arrived in your country is not something the state can enforce,

Not enforce, but promote. Nobody is saying "assimilate or die", just "assimilate and your life will become much easier".

it never works and it ownt in this case, i think its perfectly obvious to anyone but the dimmest bulbs out there that the Estonian govt does not want to make the ethnic Russian populations feel at home, but rather to forcibly Estonianise them.

Now this is what I call rant. No arguments, just beliefs, illusions and wishful thinkings. Wonderful, it makes you a great debater, really :lol:

Estonian and Latvian governments want them to accept the fact that they now live in an independent and sovereign (Russians usually tend to struggle with these words, they often don't fully grasp their meaning) countries which have chosen to fully integrate into the Western world and its institutions. They also want them to appreciate the fact that they're newcomers in these countries, and as such they must actively try to integrate, and this includes learning the local language.

This is what all Western Europeans countries expect from the immigrants and the Russians in the Baltic states are effectivelly immigrants.

My country was colonised bgy a far stronger neighbouring power; in 1922, we probably could have decided to force any people with positive feelings towards Britain to leave, instead we didnt, we gave them a place on our national flag (the orange represents northern protestants) in the hope they can intergrate into our society, and if Ireland is ever reunified they will be as welcome as anyone, thats why we allow orange oprder parades in Dublin, because regardless of how these people got to be on the island, its now their home as much as it is ours, and even if they do eventually come under the jurisdiction of Dublin, we will have no right to dictate to them their cultural or political beliefs.

Ireland isn't some wonderful exception. There was in fact much more conflict and much more blood than in the Baltic states and parts of Ireland are still "occupied" by Britain. And of course, Britain is a liberal democracy, while Russia is an authoritarian state. It's much easier to come to terms with a democratic neigbour, who isn't trying to undermine your government or dictate you your foreign policy. Britain can't be compared to Russia.

try and learn form it. soem countries can give up hiostorical grudges, however in the Baltic states and Poland esecially, it seem to be a national pastime to keep xenophobic hatred going as long as is possible.

You've just proved beyond any doubt that you're an extremely prejudiced person, who is not even remotely capable of understanding the different situation in the Baltic region. You're comparing incomparable. I gave you an example which is much more relevant and you ignored it. Further discussion with you about this is pointless, because you don't even try to discuss.
 
Not enforce, but promote. Nobody is saying "assimilate or die", just "assimilate and your life will become much easier".
Actually their life seems to be easy enough as it is, or probably more than ~150 000 of total ~400 000 would have used that option.:rolleyes: And I really doubt in possibility of any assimilation in real sense of the word. There is far too many of them and far too few of us. This is effort to survive ourselves, not to make them forget their origin.
You've just proved beyond any doubt that you're an extremely prejudiced person, who is not even remotely capable of understanding the different situation in the Baltic region. You're comparing incomparable. I gave you an example which is much more relevant and you ignored it. Further discussion with you about this is pointless, because you don't even try to discuss.
If somebody manages to get Inspector Bumhead here to respond to senses, he should become a Nobel nominee... not sure yet in which category though:lol:
 
Thats inspector bumHAT, and the first half of your post is very revealing, shows you dont think they can be assimilated. do you ever find yourself using the phrase "send em all back where they came from"?
 
Thats inspector bumHAT
Doubtful, but I take your word for it. Are you sure you don't want to double-check?
and the first half of your post is very revealing, shows you dont think they can be assimilated. do you ever find yourself using the phrase "send em all back where they came from"?
I simply do not consider learning second language "assimilation". Assimilation would mean forgetting/giving up one's national identity altogether.
 
Winner - I consider it more likely that in the near (=about 100 years or so) future Moravia will declare independence from Bohemia than Russia would try to invade Latvia or Estonia. You people appeared to forget that Georgia was the agressor in the South Ossetian War, and even though I too am absolutely disgusted by the Russians' behaviour during said war, it still wasn't them who started it. However, if there is one thing that might prove my prediction wrong, it'd be the surpression of ethnic Russians in these states.

And what's the deal with giving up national identity? 9th generation Americans still often tout their pride in their German, Irish, English, Dutch (though I don't know why you'd be proud of that), French, etc. heritage. Turkish immigrants in my town avidly support the Turkish football team during the European championships. Does this mean these people are badly assimilated? Fake Americans or Belgians? Obviously not, and neither should ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia be forced to give up and magically forget their cultural heritage. Multiculturalism works, and is something beautiful in this world, and the Baltic States needn't be too fanatic on surpressing this.
 
And what's the deal with giving up national identity? 9th generation Americans still often tout their pride in their German, Irish, English, Dutch (though I don't know why you'd be proud of that), French, etc. heritage. Turkish immigrants in my town avidly support the Turkish football team during the European championships. Does this mean these people are badly assimilated? Fake Americans or Belgians? Obviously not, and neither should ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia be forced to give up and magically forget their cultural heritage. Multiculturalism works, and is something beautiful in this world, and the Baltic States needn't be too fanatic on surpressing this.

I am sorry if I left impression that I think assimilation in the sense of giving up national identity should be sought. I have no gripes if local Russians cheer for Russian soccer team or watch Russian TV-station at home or celebrate New Year according to Orthodox calendar, or whatever. Though I'd appreciate if Russian soccer fans would not show up again with slogan "1940 - the landlords have returned", as they did last(?) time our teams met. We won that match 2:1 , btw. :D:D:D
 
Winner - I consider it more likely that in the near (=about 100 years or so) future Moravia will declare independence from Bohemia than Russia would try to invade Latvia or Estonia.

With all the respect, what you think is irrelevant :) Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians have a long and painful experience with Russian imperialism. For them, even a small possibility of renewed Russian aggression is enough to adopt measures to decrease their vulnerability.

Seeing how the Russians use the minorities abroad to undermine sovereign states doesn't really help to build up confidence and trust. Perhaps if the Russians were not so heavy handed in their approach to these countries and didn't constantly threaten them (verbally, electronically, economically) and patronized them, they could be persuaded to ease up on their Russian minorities.

But in reality, Russia does the exact opposite, which in turns brings more resistance and more suspicion. It's really up to Russia, not the Baltic countries themselves, how the relations develop. It's kinda unfair to blame the Baltic countries for the bad relations with Russia when it's the Russians who are constantly creating tensions.

You people appeared to forget that Georgia was the agressor in the South Ossetian War, and even though I too am absolutely disgusted by the Russians' behaviour during said war, it still wasn't them who started it.

The whole think did not start on August 8th. The conflict has a long history and the Russians are clearly not the innocent bystanders. I won't discuss that more here, let's just say it's more complicated. What's clear though is that Russia often takes advantage of ethnic tensions in bordering countries and uses it as pretext for its meddling into their internal affairs.

However, if there is one thing that might prove my prediction wrong, it'd be the surpression of ethnic Russians in these states.

Are you trying to blame them in advance for any possible Russian aggression against them?

And what's the deal with giving up national identity? 9th generation Americans still often tout their pride in their German, Irish, English, Dutch (though I don't know why you'd be proud of that), French, etc. heritage. Turkish immigrants in my town avidly support the Turkish football team during the European championships. Does this mean these people are badly assimilated? Fake Americans or Belgians? Obviously not, and neither should ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia be forced to give up and magically forget their cultural heritage. Multiculturalism works, and is something beautiful in this world, and the Baltic States needn't be too fanatic on surpressing this.

Again, nobody expects them to become more Estonian then the Estonians themselves. The German-Americans proud of their heritage usually don't speak the language and behave/live like typical Americans, so it's not really a good comparison, since they have given up on the identity of their ancestors and keep just a very symbolic knowledge of their origins. Turks in Western Europe are much less assimilated, it's a different story.

This is really about making them accept the Estonian (or Latvian) state and the fact that these people are not longer Russian subjects. They can't behave like they owned the country. They must integrate and learn to respect their countrymen. They can't just ignore them and hope that one day they'll be part of Russia again (-like the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia after WW1-).
 
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