How should the West contain Russia?

[Shekwan]

Well this really kicked off. So the argument has basically turned into the Estonian defending his right to be a xenophobe and Winner backing him up with anti-Russian walls of text. I mean you're using examples from 60 years ago to compare Russia to Nazi Germany and Estonia to Czechoslovakia? This is the 21st century people. I guess it's always inevitable that the Hitler comparisons would crop up.

I just don't get why the Estonians and other Baltic states are happy to have this xenophobic attitude against Russians. They're in an EU country, democratic, free market economy and all the rest- what have they to really fear from the Russians now? They're even in NATO! Nothing. But yet they've still got this immature inferiority complex where they've got to be paranoid of and hate the Russians. Why not put the past behind you?

The Ireland example is pretty valid I believe. You've got two sides who were ''fighting like dogs'' twenty five years ago but now they're sharing power in the same government. And all you've got to do is live with a few Russians and you're crying about the ''cultural differences'' and other nationalist bs. They're not going to create plantation style settlements and reintegrate you into Russia for God's sake you're in NATO and the EU what more protection do you need?!

I agree 100% with Cato on this one: "Multiculturalism works, and is something beautiful in this world, and the Baltic States needn't be too fanatic on surpressing this."

 

[Gelion]

Do not tell them they betray EU ideals! I could not bare someone having a heart attack!

 

[red_elk]

No, this is because of simple ignorance.

BTW, if I understand the reasons, it doesn't mean I justify actions.

Winner - I consider it more likely that in the near (=about 100 years or so) future Moravia will declare independence from Bohemia than Russia would try to invade Latvia or Estonia. You people appeared to forget that Georgia was the agressor in the South Ossetian War, and even though I too am absolutely disgusted by the Russians' behaviour during said war, it still wasn't them who started it.

It's true, they have no reason to worry about security. At least until they are not forcing people to integrate, using artillery. If they do, NATO won't help.

 

[Desert-Fox]

Xenophobia is a fear or contempt of that which is foreign or unknown, especially of strangers or foreign people.[1] It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "foreigner," "stranger," and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear." The term is typically used to describe a fear or dislike of foreigners or of people significantly different from oneself.

Russophobe mean that a person fears Russians? It means that rabbits have phobia against Foxes?

But as it seems to me, people from the old West believe that Russia is changed and is now peaceful civilized country and have no harm longer. It is naive to believe that. They are developing just that way than Nazi Germany did in 1930s.

I mean you're using examples from 60 years ago to compare Russia to Nazi Germany and Estonia to Czechoslovakia?

These things may be compared. Yes Russia have no demanded yet that we must give away Ida-Virumaa(East-Virumaa) where live a lot of Russians but Russian foreign doctrine is similar than Hitler had(They protect every Russian citizen in foreign countries ... and they showed in Georgia how the protection will look like).

I do not want to repeat myself again and again... Winner and Yeekim told it before why things are such as it is now. And about multiculturalism, I see how "successfully" Arabians and West-Europeans live together and I see no tensions between to cultures.

 

[Yeekim]

Shekwan, I am sorry, if these "walls of text" were too bothersome for you to read and comprehend.

You are vomiting all over about hate & xenophobia & immature inferiority complexes and whatnot.

Please tell me, what is it in Estonia that is wrong in your opinion? What should be done differently? You say that "all we have to do is to live side by side with some Russians". Guess what, smartass - that's precisely what we are doing (and we don't care whether they are Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox or Marxist-Atheists either!).
I asked mr BumHat here to compare casualties from terrorist attacks or international insurgencies in Estonia with these of Ireland. He has been strangely quiet - I assume he has been able to find zero such data about Estonia.
The discussion here started when Gelion asked me about claims in Russian media - claims about discrimination against Russians. The main problem seems to be they weren't automatically given citizenships. Well - the citizenship is f**king there to be taken if anyone damn well pleases! And if someone does not bother, he obviously does not feel like he needs this.

Fer crying out loud for anyone else too dumb or ignorant to read or comprehend otherwise: THE PROBLEM LIES NOT WITH LOCAL RUSSIANS! 90% of them are totally normal people. The problem is propaganda about discrimination and other BS coming from Kremlin, which I've been trying to refute.

 

[Elta]

Saran Warp is good for containing things like this, My advice would be not even to mess with girls that even have a little bit of Russian or at the very least stick to the butt.

 

[Shekwan]

Shekwan, I am sorry, if these "walls of text" were too bothersome for you to read and comprehend.

You are vomiting all over about hate & xenophobia & immature inferiority complexes and whatnot.

Please tell me, what is it in Estonia that is wrong in your opinion? What should be done differently? You say that "all we have to do is to live side by side with some Russians". Guess what, smartass - that's precisely what we are doing (and we don't care whether they are Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox or Marxist-Atheists either!).
I asked mr BumHat here to compare casualties from terrorist attacks or international insurgencies in Estonia with these of Ireland. He has been strangely quiet - I assume he has been able to find zero such data about Estonia.
The discussion here started when Gelion asked me about claims in Russian media - claims about discrimination against Russians. The main problem seems to be they weren't automatically given citizenships. Well - the citizenship is f**king there to be taken if anyone damn well pleases! And if someone does not bother, he obviously does not feel like he needs this.

Fer crying out loud for anyone else too dumb or ignorant to read or comprehend otherwise: THE PROBLEM LIES NOT WITH LOCAL RUSSIANS! 90% of them are totally normal people. The problem is propaganda about discrimination and other BS coming from Kremlin, which I've been trying to refute.

Ok so you get along with the Russians now? What's the problem then? You don't like what the media in Russia is saying, yet you don't actually have a problem with the Russians in Estonia. Like you said if they want to get an Estonian passport they can.

I thought the Irish example was good because it shows how two very differing sides can get along. I didn't want to compare terrorism or anything else you want to ramdomly compare. More terrorism in Ireland only proves the fact that the two sides had huge differences.

The inferiority complex that I've been trying to show you is the fact that you're still bothered by Russian propoganda. I mean Estonia is in the EU and NATO, what are the Russians going to do? Where's the need for "containment of Russia" if they're not even a threat?

 

[Yeekim]

The inferiority complex that I've been trying to show you is the fact that you're still bothered by Russian propoganda. I mean Estonia is in the EU and NATO, what are the Russians going to do? Where's the need for "containment of Russia" if they're not even a threat?

The problem is that I do not like if people are lead to think of Estonia as some apartheid country, were anyone who speaks Russian as first language is relentlessly persecuted day and night by guys wearing swastikas or whatever.
As for "Russian threat" - it has not started to bother my sleep yet , neither did I start this thread, asking how to "contain" them.
That said, even while I don't think there is any real foreseeable danger, I believe that your attitude towards Russia can only be reasonable when one is situated in relatively furthest part of Europe. At least until they have managed to spend next 50 years without invading anybody...

 

[red_elk]

The problem is that I do not like if people are lead to think of Estonia as some apartheid country, were anyone who speaks Russian as first language is relentlessly persecuted day and night by guys wearing swastikas or whatever.

You can change this.
Don't allow former SS-men to marsh through your cities.
Let people who live in your country all their life, to have the same rights and opportunities regardless of language spoken.

 

[Desert-Fox]

You can change this.
Don't allow former SS-men to marsh through your cities.
Let people who live in your country all their life, to have the same rights and opportunities regardless of language spoken.

And also hammer and sickle should be banned. But Yeekim told about that a lot of Russians already have citizenship and people who don't have it, doesn't want it very much. If they have citizenship then they have all the rights than other citizens have. And there is no bias against Russians, also if a Japanese move to live Estonia, he also doesn't get citizenship automatically. But IIRC they have no problems learning our language.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Let people who live in your country all their life, to have the same rights and opportunities regardless of language spoken.

So, after you invaded their country and brought your settlers with you, they should just cheer and not even ask a common sense thing like they bother to learn & speak the local language? The horror - you should know the language of the country you're living in... that's like, wow, totally absurd, right?

That coming from a country which, at it's peak, displayed more barbarism then the nazis?(Stalin at least sure was a good competitor for Hitler, and he had more time on his hands too).

And the reason why russia has to be contained again, it's not the fact that anyone hates russia, it's simply because after a few years of trying and failing(and it's noone else's but their fault they had a drunkard as president) to get an economy ongoing, they simply fell back to the old tactic of trying to pillage around in order to support their own incompetence/rag tag economy.

They tried to have a democracy ongoing for what? 10 years? And gave up after noticing that simply holding elections and writing democracy didn't fill their baskets... what a surprise...

It's the only country in this world that openly considers a God given right for them to have their "sphere of influence"... NATO were bad boys because they interfered with their "sphere of influence"(n.b. - that while everyone in their supposedly private backyard are more then fed up with them). With an outdated army, with a non existant economy(selling your resources doesn't make up for an economy), with a population in decline, yet it's the same old song... we want this, we want that, this is our yard despite the map showing you a different country then russia where they point...

Hoping to have a partnership with someone displaying 0 common sense is perfectly absurd. Glad that the west woke up, though they sure took their time... pity it took Georgia to realize the situation... Also comparing Ireland/England situation with russia/eastern block countries; it's not like the English/their lap dogs deported/killed millions in Ireland... And anyway, again, it's not an issue about loving/hating/not carring about russia, it's an issue that after not even 20 years after their last defeat they're back to their old habbits and want to try one more time... ffs, how patient should one be...

p.s. - don't get me wrong, it's their own business if they want to have a dictator or not; however, they should stick to their own business and stop trying to invent spheres of influence in other countries then their own.

 

[red_elk]

And also hammer and sickle should be banned. But Yeekim told about that a lot of Russians already have citizenship and people who don't have it, doesn't want it very much. If they have citizenship then they have all the rights than other citizens have. And there is no bias against Russians, also if a Japanese move to live Estonia, he also doesn't get citizenship automatically. But IIRC they have no problems learning our language.

Did you read my message? If you don't like your country to be compared with nazi, don't allow SS-men to marsh through your cities.

That coming from a country which, at it's peak, displayed more barbarism then the nazis?

This is coming from country which liberated world from nazism to contry where people allowed to justify nazism.

 

[Desert-Fox]

Did you read my message? If you don't like your country to be compared with nazi, don't allow SS-men to marsh through your cities.



This is coming from country which liberated world from nazism to contry where people allowed to justify nazism.

The Nazi thing is in people's mind, not what they wear... A lot of people who wear Nazi Symbols are just wannabes and doesn't know about Nazism anything. They only hate Jews and Blacks and they even don't know why they hate, just they think that it's cool. Poor guys.

And USSR replaced Nazis with Commies, so it wasn't actual liberation, just increasing of their sphere of influence. And without Allies help, Russia wouldn't win the WW2.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

This is coming from country which liberated world from nazism to contry where people allowed to justify nazism.

Nazism wasn't bad because it was called nazism; it was bad because the society it promoted was a barbarian one; same for communism. And the fact that at school they learnt you russia liberated the world doesn't have much to do with reality... I'm from Romania, heard this at school too; yet, there were 17 years in which you could do your homework... You were declared, you fought; that's pretty much what everyone did in ww2 bar axis countries...

 

[red_elk]

The Nazi thing is in people's mind, not what they wear... A lot of people who wear Nazi Symbols are just wannabes and doesn't know about Nazism anything. They only hate Jews and Blacks and they even don't know why they hate, just they think that it's cool. Poor guys.

And USSR replaced Nazis with Commies, so it wasn't actual liberation, just increasing of their sphere of influence. And without Allies help, Russia wouldn't win the WW2.

I don't care what this people know about Nazism. If they kill Jews for being Jews (or Blacks, or Slavs) - they are Nazis. If they worship Hitler, or SS or wearing Nazi symbols - they are Nazis. If society doesn't punish them for this - this society is supporting Nazism.

Nazism wasn't bad because it was called nazism; it was bad because the society it promoted was a barbarian one; same for communism.

What you mean, barbarian society? Germany and Russia were (and are) amongst the most advanced countries in culture and sciense.
If modern non-barbarian society, say, France would promote Nazism, it will be good then?

And the fact that at school they learnt you russia liberated the world doesn't have much to do with reality... I'm from Romania, heard this at school too; yet, there were 17 years in which you could do your homework... You were declared, you fought; that's pretty much what everyone did in ww2 bar axis countries...

Soviet Union destroyed Nazist Germany in 1941-1945. With Allies help. Since then, the world is free from Hitler's nazism. This is reality.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

exactly; with allies help. Or the allies beat germany/japan with su help. Which is so very far from russia liberating the world.

Does it mean, German society was barbarian?

how would you call a society killing people just because they're a different race and using forced work? civilized? And I wasn't talking about Germany being barbarian, but about the fact that nazi society was barbarian... And both things applied to Stalin's SU: both forced labor and killing/deporting people just because they were a different race.

And once again, before rambling another 10 pages about Hitler, the issue is not what someone/some country did in the past; the issue is that, after 20 years, you come back playing the same song about your "sphere of influence" and how some countries are less independant then others just because they happen to be near you geographically. Like "Georgia shouldn't join NATO"; or Ukraine for that matter. WTH is your problem with what Georgia or Ukraine does? Stick to your yard for once; civilize yourself abit and you'll notice the world ain't such a bad place who started a crusade against you... but I guess old habbits die hard.

 

[red_elk]

exactly; with allies help. Or the allies beat germany/japan with su help. Which is so very far from russia liberating the world.

Allies defeated Japan with help of Soviet Union.
Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany with help of Allies.
Soviet Union liberated world from Hitler.
Don't like this? Get used to, this is true.

how would you call a society killing people just because they're a different race and using forced work? civilized? And I wasn't talking about Germany being barbarian, but about the fact that nazi society was barbarian...

I don't understand. You wrote that Nazism was bad only because German society was barbarian. Does it mean, somewhere was, or is, good Nazism, where society don't kill people?

And once again, before rambling another 10 pages about Hitler, the issue is not what someone/some country did in the past; the issue is that, after 20 years, you come back playing the same song about your "sphere of influence" and how some countries are less independant then others just because they happen to be near you geographically.

Tell me please, where Russian officials declared such things? About "sphere of influence" and "less independent countries"? Or you just repeating what your local newspapers written?

Like "Georgia shouldn't join NATO"; or Ukraine for that matter. WTH is your problem with what Georgia or Ukraine does? Stick to your yard for once; civilize yourself abit and you'll notice the world ain't such a bad place who started a crusade against you... but I guess old habbits die hard.

Our neighbour countries should be neytral, or join military block which is not hostile to us. For example to military block which we can join as well. NATO is not such block, it was created in cold war and it was initially against us. We have no opportunity to join this block.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Don't like this? Get used to, this is true.

never argued it ain't in your own tiny world... SU would've been history as soon as '41 without backup. And for that matter, a ton of backup.

Tell me please, where Russian officials declared such things? About "sphere of influence" and "less independent countries"? Or you just repeating what your local newspapers written?

and 2 rows after

Our neighbour countries should be neytral, or join military block which is not hostile to us. For example to military block which we can join as well. NATO is not such block, it was created in cold war and it was initially against us. We have no opportunity to join this block.

like, you know, your neighbors should do as they please... get used to that. That's exactly what I meant by "less independant". "They should do what pleases us"; yeah, right... They owe you something? You buddy buddy with them? If yes, maybe you should tell them too(God forbid, maybe even act less aggressively)... Are you selling them oil at a discount price? If I look at Gazprom's prices in Ukraine or Georgia, I'd say quite the contrary...

Why in heaven's name would they have to appease you beside the fact you'd like that?! When debating something, at least keep some kind of decency. Noone owes you anything; what are you? God, what...

And you're probably the only person in this world who didn't hear about the fact your country considers it deserves their own backyard where they should play around... Try google or somethin'...

And NATO isn't opposing you; it's merely keeping you under control since you have dreams about an empire again. It's probably the only thing that prevents you from trying to invade again the baltics/Poland and so on. Actively opposing you would mean invade your country; which wouldn't even be that hard... Like it's anyone's fault you want more land despite the fact you can't even fill what you have...

Estonia - "our minority ain't treated right"; they shouldn't learn the language, they shouldn't do anything, yet they should have full rights. Your hackers start acting funky because they didn't want a statue(I mean, really, how stupid is that?!)
Moldavia - transnistria;
Georgia - abhazia, ossetia;
Ukraine - Crimea;
your own country - checenia;
Latvia, Letonia - joined NATO;

tell me, beside the countries where you managed to impose your own dictators like Central Asia and the Ocean, is there any neighbor who has decent relations with you? Clearly, it's not your fault, it's the whole world who has something with you? Right?

Last thing: South Ossetia has... 70k people; that's like... 5 villages, what? What's next? When you won't find some Russians in a country, you'll move some in a neighborhood and then ask that neighborhood to gain independance? What's next? A street in Kiev should gain independance because there are more russians living there?

The whole issue is mind boggling... 70k ppl. want their own state; damn, I want one too, I hate paying taxes... If you don't give them some money, do you think they'll afford to pay their UN tax? Ok, ok, that was overboard, obviously noone's gonna recognize them, so they won't have to bother with UN membership tax...

 

[red_elk]

like, you know, your neighbors should do as they please... get used to that.

If they please to kill our people, it turned out recently that they can't do it. NATO didn't help.

If I look at Gazprom's prices in Ukraine or Georgia, I'd say quite the contrary...

Then look. You'd be surprised.

Why in heaven's name would they have to appease you beside the fact you'd like that?! When debating something, at least keep some kind of decency. Noone owes you anything; what are you? God, what...

Appease? Why appease? Don't bring US missiles to a few hundreds km from Moscow and you won't have problems. Be neytral, like Finland, or be friend, like Armenia. They are not complaining.

And you're probably the only person in this world who didn't hear about the fact your country considers it deserves their own backyard where they should play around... Try google or somethin'...

Again, give me examples when Russian officials saying something like this, about "less independent countries", or "own backyard". You are still operating with media catchfrases.

And NATO isn't opposing you; it's merely keeping you under control since you have dreams about an empire again. It's probably the only thing that prevents you from trying to invade again the baltics/Poland and so on.

You think we want to invade Poland? And we think USA wants to "liberate" Moscow Who is right?

Actively opposing you would mean invade your country; which wouldn't even be that hard... Like it's anyone's fault you want more land despite the fact you can't even fill what you have...

Try...

Estonia - "our minority ain't treated right"; they shouldn't learn the language, they shouldn't do anything, yet they should have full rights. Your hackers start acting funky because they didn't want a statue(I mean, really, how stupid is that?!)

Yes, they must have full rights. Yes, moving monument of Soviet Soldier was insult to Russian people.

Moldavia - transnistria;
Georgia - abhazia, ossetia;
Ukraine - Crimea;
your own country - checenia;
Latvia, Letonia - joined NATO;

tell me, beside the countries where you managed to impose your own dictators like Central Asia and the Ocean, is there any neighbor who has decent relations with you? Clearly, it's not your fault, it's the whole world who has something with you? Right?

Armenia, Belorussia, Finland, China, Japan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia...
Germany, Italy, Syria, France, Vietnam...
What you mean, "own dictators in Central Asia"?
What you mean, own dictators in Ocean? Cthulhu?

Last thing: South Ossetia has... 70k people; that's like... 5 villages, what? What's next? When you won't find some Russians in a country, you'll move some in a neighborhood and then ask that neighborhood to gain independance? What's next? A street in Kiev should gain independance because there are more russians living there?

The whole issue is mind boggling... 70k ppl. want their own state; damn, I want one too, I hate paying taxes... If you don't give them some money, do you think they'll afford to pay their UN tax?

South Ossetia was asking for protection, because Georgian president directed attack of Georgian army to them. They were killing Ossetian people. Ossetians doesn't want to be part of Georgia because Georgians were killing them. Understand?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Appease? Why appease? Don't bring US missiles to a few hundreds km from Moscow and you won't have problems. Be neytral, like Finland. They are not complaining.

if you try spinning, at least do it right. The missiles are in Poland, the conflict was in Georgia. And that's exactly why your neighbors want to join NATO; so they don't end up like Georgia. How surprising... What did you do in Poland's case? Bark? Everyone's used to that; probably noone minds it either. It's annoying and nothing more.

That's precisely NATO's role. To ensure that tops of what you can do is complain.

Again, give me examples when Russian officials saying something like this, about "less independent countries", or "own backyard". You are still operating with media catchfrases.

again, try google

Yes, moving monument of Soviet Soldier was insult to Russian people.

Let me get it straight; I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely try to point out to those ppl. in the West Europe that's not some eastern block obsession with russia and that it's simply hard to deal with unreasonable states.

Basically, your point is that someone should keep something(a statue, whatever) in their own capitol city so they don't "insult" you. While your average Red Army conscript acted even worse then the Wermacht; while nothing your army looted from East Europe in ww2 was returned; right?

But that aside, your country is cool with hacking because... someone "insulted" you by not wanting a statue in their own city, in their own country. It's... an interesting point of view. I'm sure the majority of the readers agree with you

"Germany, Italy, Syria, France, Vietnam..."

you know, the warsaw pact died. Those states aren't your neighbors... And it's funny you mention Finland; I'm sure they love you after you took Karelia from them.

What you mean, "own dictators in Central Asia"?

Niyazov? Ok, he died. Lukashenko? Nazarbayev? Karimov? Rahmon/Rahmonov? It sure is wierd how all your neighbors with whom you have good relations share two common things:

- their president is some kinda dictator who's usually in place since 1991. Ok, Niyazov died... But man, those presidents sure have many terms... they're clearly extremely good and the population keeps voting for them in the... 100th term;
- their president is someone who was the former prime secretary of the said republic in SU times...

I really wonder why. The coincidence... apparatciks back in russia, former prime secretaries as presidents. And, surprise, surprise, those are the neighbors with whom you have good relations... Old habbits die hard...

And regarding the ocean, was just a pun; read the phrase again. I'm sure you have good relations at least because there's noone with whom you could quarrel there bar the fish...

Regarding the issue in South Ossetia, things are rather simple: 17 years they tried to negociate something. What do you expect... after a while anyone would get bored. Leaving aside that requesting independence for 70000 is ridiculous from the start.