How the atheists fell for fundamentalism

Fundamentalists are the wost of the religious, and the simplest. Add on to that they are quite vocal. These things make them appealing targets. Furthermore, forum debate usually happens between the two most extreme positions present on the forum, with the audience as the ones who are hoped to be swayed. This is why the debate is often held with the so called "Fundamentalist" world view described in the OP.

But this does not imply that an atheists cannot make an appeal to liberal Protestants to reject their religion.
 
Don't virtually all eastern religions offer to fulfill the immortality fantasy in some way?

And I didn't realize that any appreciable number of atheists were trying to make people de-convert. All I want is for religion not to have influence on public policy. People can believe whatever they wish otherwise.
 
So we're tossing out pretty much every East Asian religion from the list of religions, and putting most western philosophy into the religion category?

It would perhaps be easier to just stop calling eastern religions religions. We can call them life philosophies or something. It's fruitless to argue about religion, when there is no clear definition of what it is.
 
No, Hinduism and Budhism treat the idea of immortality in some form as a given, and the entire appeal of the religion is the "fantasy" of permanent death to escape the "curse" of immortality.

Confucianism comes out and says that the existence of life after death is both unknowable and irrelevant, even if it was true.

So yeah, except for a couple billion people, it's virtually all of them.
 
It would perhaps be easier to just stop calling eastern religions religions. We can call them life philosophies or something.
We can just ignore the existence of Asia entirely, it'll be easier still to pretend the world can only be understood by what's in throwing distance of my house.
 
If a "religion" doesn't actually employ metaphysical elements as its prime justification, it isn't a religion to me. And I see no point in calling it that, either, other than the apparent need to have the same narrative for the whole world. It if at all is a philosophy with religious elements.
But it is not like that is the case with Hinduism or Buddhism. The former knows all sorts of spirits, deities and so on and the latter knows reincarnations and other metaphysical concepts as prime attributes. In Tibet, Buddhism was also no stranger to gods. I don't know about its historic application in other regions. Do you? I do know that Buddhism was often used in combination with variating local concept of deities, spirits and so forth.
 
That depends on how we define essence. But it surely will always be a generalization. No doubt about that. But such is the nature of social phenomenas. You can never fully comprehend them, so you generalize to get at least as close as possible.

As said, in this context I understand essence as what defines a specific social institution. And by defines I mean what is its fundamental difference to other social institutions.
If you accept that identifying the category of "religion" necessarily involves generalisation, then why do you also suggest that we should look for some essence? Why not just adopt a fully contextual understanding of religion, as something ultimately inextricable from its human context? I'm not trying to pull some sort of "a-ha!" move, I honestly don't understand why you're accepting what appear to be two distinct premises.

In case of religion, it is that its foundation is of a metaphysical nature by definition. You can't have religion without that. Then it is an ideology or whatever.
As Park says, this is pretty problematic. Confucianism becomes a mere set of traditions, while Platonism becomes as much a religion as Islam. So it doesn't really work either as a category that includes much of what is generally understood as "religion", or that excludes things which generally aren't.

And then one may ask what does this metaphysical nature offer others can't - so again what defines it? I would say that there are no direct constraints by the observable world to its message.

And to what purpose is that used? Naturally, to serve the emotional needs of people. But again we may ask, in what way can those metaphysics serve emotional needs other things can not? I would answer that with an absolute and universal source of meaning (and hence in a certain way security, orientation), not constrained by the limitations of the observable world.

And that's where I arrive at the conclusion:
The essence of religion is the emotional need of people for an absolute sense of meaning.

I personally don't care how that is achieved. But it is my impression that every religion does that. Of course, I can be wrong and would be very interested if you knew a religion which doesn't.
What is "meaning", in this sense? Are you suggesting something narrowly teleological, which plenty of religions do reject, or simply in a looser sense of identifying a "place" for humans in the universe, which could be said of plenty of non-religious philosophies? Some of animistic belief-systems identify no fundamentally different place for humans in the universe, simply identifying them as one form of life among many (albeit invariably distinguished in various not-insignificant respects)- does that constitute offering "meaning"? Or how about Marxism, in which humans are located within a process of historical development, and offered some direction for further development- is that "meaning", and so is Marxism a religion? (Marx certainly had a metaphysics, albeit an insufficiently developed one, and various successors offer more complete models.) So this is a claim that really needs to be expanded upon.

Besides, this is getting away from Whiksey Lord's original claim, which more narrowly suggested that religion could be understood in terms of a "caring universe" and what he above calls the "immortality fantasy". Which is even narrower set of claims with even more specific presuppositions, so demanding even more expansion.
 
But it is not like that is the case with Hinduism or Buddhism. The former knows all sorts of spirits, deities and so on and the latter knows reincarnations and other metaphysical concepts as prime attributes. In Tibet, Buddhism was also no stranger to gods. I don't know about is historic application in other regions. Do you? I do know that Buddhism was often used in combination with variating local concept of deities, spirits and so forth.
But these aren't the "basis" of the religion, these are other elements of a society which are compatible with the religion. I don't see any reason to disclude these religions other then the fact that it disagrees with your definition.
If you want to do that, fine, but your definitions have no use in interpreting reality then.
However, this still means that "Hegelianism", "Platonism", "Materialism" and "Mathematics" are all religions, just because they fit your definition.
 
Care to specify? It is bad style to have me worm everything out of you.
You want me to specify the metaphysical basis most of the schools of western philosophy? Why don't you try to read up on metaphysics.

It's bad style to expect a college course out of somebody because you didn't do your reading.
 
Confucianism comes out and says that the existence of life after death is both unknowable and irrelevant, even if it was true.
Confucianism has historically been linked to ancestor worship, with the idea persist and may be honored. I can't speek for more modern Confucianism, though. Afterlife is not central to Confucianism, but it can embellish the world view.
 
Confucianism has historically been linked to ancestor worship, with the idea persist and may be honored. I can't speek for more modern Confucianism, though. Afterlife is not central to Confucianism, but it can embellish the world view.
IIRC correctly, Confucius cheerfully declared that he had no idea at all if ancestor worship actually achieved anything, but that it didn't matter, because what was important was the overall structure of traditionalism and filial piety which he advocated. Ancestor worship as it was actually practised in China was just a convenient local tradition that served the purpose of re-enforcing and expressing these principals.

And, of course, that's where the distinction between Confucianism-as-religion and Confucianism-as-accompaniment-to-religion gets complicated. If its practice entailed a whole range of religious ceremonies, but it didn't espouse any particular spiritual model (let alone a spiritual metaphysics) to support those ceremonies, then is it a religion by th? Or what, on the other hand, of Mohism, which upheld the idea of a divine heavenly force administering supernatural justice, but advocated no particular mode of worship beyond a general austerity?
 
Sorry, I was being Western-centric and therefore overly general. I think it is true that some religions are meant to fulfill the desire for transcendent purpose, but not all. Religion is only one aspect of culture. I think it is fair to say that in every culture, there is always something which fulfills that desire. It doesn't have to be religion, but it most often is in Western societies. I think it does fulfill that function in modern American society which, again, is what the article is about. Atheism comes into conflict with fundamentalism because atheism is a denial of the comforting fantasies which the fundies cling to. Some people are simply disturbed at the notion that others would reject their fantasy, and they feel threatened by it for reasons that should be obvious by now.
 
Confucianism has historically been linked to ancestor worship, with the idea persist and may be honored. I can't speek for more modern Confucianism, though. Afterlife is not central to Confucianism, but it can embellish the world view.
First "Ancestor Worship" is an outdated and inaccurate term. No such practice exists in China. Second, these practices pre-date Confucianism. Confucius was specifically asked about the truth of them, and the existence of the soul after death, and described them as irrelevant.
Now, at this point, many, many problems arise for the theory that Religion exists only to provide a "fantasy" of immortality.
First, if Confucianism does a bad job providing such a fantasy, why did it become so successful as a religion?
Second, if this is the basis of religion, why did Confucianism ever form in the first place, since the assumption of people already was of immortality? Why did we see a flowering of religious practices during this period, and an influx of other religions (Buddhism, Islam, etc.) later, if they had nothing new to offer, and if the people's concern for their mortality was already cared for?
 
IIRC correctly, Confucius cheerfully declared that he had no ideal at all if ancestor worship actually achieved anything, but that it didn't matter, because what was important was the overall structure of traditionalism and filial piety which he advocated. Ancestor worship as it was actually practised in China was just a convenient local tradition that served the purpose of re-enforcing and expressing these principals.
Specifically he chided the students for concerning themselves with the dead, when they hadn't figured out how to get along with the living.

Here we go:
Kong Fu-zi said:
Chî Lû asked about serving the spirits of the dead. The Master said, "While you are not able to serve men, how can you serve their spirits?" Chî Lû added, "I venture to ask about death?" He was answered, "While you do not know life, how can you know about death?"
 
Sorry, I was being Western-centric and therefore overly general. I think it is true that some religions are meant to fulfill the desire for transcendent purpose, but not all. Religion is only one aspect of culture. I think it is fair to say that in every culture, there is always something which fulfills that desire. It doesn't have to be religion, but it most often is in Western societies. I think it does fulfill that function in modern American society which, again, is what the article is about. Atheism comes into conflict with fundamentalism because atheism is a denial of the comforting fantasies which the fundies cling to. Some people are simply disturbed at the notion that others would reject their fantasy, and they feel threatened by it for reasons that should be obvious by now.
In that case, what do you mean by "transcendent purpose", and how do you understand that as being fulfilled by religious practice and belief in Western society?

@Park: :goodjob:
 
I've honestly not encountered this. Perhaps Britain is casually ambling down some secularising sonderweg in this regard, but most people here are neither religious nor anti-religious, at least as far as I can tell. (Dawkins, for example, has never been regarded as a spokes-person of the irreligious as he is in the US, he's regarded as someone pushing his own specific philosophical line.) It seems to me that, if he has any validity in his argument (and I share Lovett's reservations on that count), it's as a comment on the extent to which fundamental Protestantism has set the terms of debate in the United States, rather than on any apparently monolithic bloc of "atheists".

Australia too.

This strikes me as an American exceptionalism thing, not the reverse.
 
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