How to end govt corruption?

[raystuttgart]

This seems like a fun read on the trouble Deutsche Bahn is suffering from.

Because it is still not fully private as e.g. the rails still do not belong to DB and is mostly tied to government restrictions.
As e.g. a lot of the prices for tickets and other things are heavily decided by the government.

If you compare it to the companies that do not have a goverment background and were not burdened by old bureacracy thinking you may see a difference.
Of course companies with a government background and thus legacy of insufficiency will struggle once they have to face challenge on the private market.

It is just the same with communist countries that become capitalist ... they will also struggle.
So it is best to not turn them into a bureacratic hell of insufficiency where politicians decide without actually understanding the matter.

e.g. the German government forced a "9 Euro Ticket" to the Deutsche Bahn ... to convince citizens to use more public transportation ... as it can still make such decisions.
It is actually a very unrealistic expectation that a 9 Euro Ticket that allows you to drive all over Germany (e.g. full North to South) will allow the DB to stay competitive.

Politicians are not good business men ... they often make very stupid decisions for the government companies for political reasons.
And in the end it will neither benefit the people that work in those companies nor the customers that consume the products.

As I said:
Too much government involvment based on politcal interests ... it can cause a lot of trouble for businesses.

All I am saying:
Turning private companies into state run companies is no solution to anything ...
It will definitely not solve corruption and in most cases really not benefit the customers at all.

 

[NinjaCow64]

More the comments about the USSR. The corruption was there right from the get go. Party officials ate well during the siege of Leningrad.

Source?

 

[Gorbles]

Turning private companies into state run companies is no solution to anything ...
It will definitely not solve corruption and in most cases really not benefit the customers at all.

Cool. I disagree completely

 

[NinjaCow64]

Least Corrupt Countries 2023

These sorts of maps are memes - they rarely (if ever) use methodology that isn’t just feelings based.

 

[raystuttgart]

Cool. I disagree completely

Show me one example where turning a private company into a government owned made it work better.
I can give you dozens where government involvment made things only worse ...

Most governments themselves are inefficient bureacracy nightmares due to their size and complexity and competing politial interests.
What makes you believe that such an inefficient organisation could actual make things work better for a business it controls?

 

[Gorbles]

Show me one example where turning a private company into a government owned made it work better.

I mean, apart from the Deutsche Bahn, historically? Nah. Here's why:

Anecdotes are anecdotes.

This goes for my anecdotes too.

A single example isn't going to convince you of anything. Multiple examples likely won't convince you either, because you are fundamentally opposed to the concept. It's fine you hold this opinion, but please don't make me waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. You've given your position, and I understand it. I disagree with it, and that's that.

Again, you should take your own advice from the other thread

 

[raystuttgart]

I mean, apart from the Deutsche Bahn, historically?

Deutsche Bahn was originally public and turned private because it was making giant losses and became way too expensive for the tax payers due to the huge bureaucracy involved.
It was a try to save the company actually ... but yes it is still struggling ... especially compared to private rail German railroad companies without the burden of government legacy.

A single example isn't going to convince you of anything.

Well it might ... as I reallly do not know any single example where turning a private company public was a good decision and actually making it less corrupt.
But ok, I will not insist on it ... I understand that it is probably inconvenient to search one ... because you would have to search veeeeeeery long.

I disagree with it, and that's that.

Perfectly fine. It is your right to do so.

 

[Gorbles]

Well it might ... as I reallly do not know any single example where turning a private company public was a good decision and actually making it less corrupt.

Sounds like a you problem, not a me problem. I am surprised that you don't know about the consequences of the financial crisis in the late 00s. The UK alone nationalised (or part-nationalised) several banks as a consequence.

I didn't even have to search for that one. There are a ton more, literally with Google at your fingertips. If you don't want to look, again, that's not my problem. It's not like we're discussing something niche that would benefit from me explaining it. Nationalisation has been around for ages, and has a ton of examples.

 

[Zardnaar]

Some things the government should run (police, army, prisons, strategic assets) other things the private sector (luxury goods) while others can be a hybrid (local amenities, energy producers etc). That's just me.

 

[gay_Aleks]

This goes just for giant companies like banks, agribusiness, pharmaceuticals, etc?

Or all small private businesses?

And assuming such large businesses are taken over by government how do you keep them from getting corrupted? Presumably government businesses are monopolys which seems to increase the probability of corruption not lowing it (as w the electric situation in South Africa)

Considering small private businesses are some of the most unhinged nickel and dimers in the existence (try arguing with a small landlord, for an example, to install good amenities or fix anything), yes. Ironically, this is for the somewhat reverse reasons a monopoly is able to muscle its way with ease; small businesses work at the margins, and they have to do cuts, cuts to live; but those cuts are, from a societal perspective, wildly inefficient.

Government business monopolies under capitalism suffer from the fact that a capitalist state serves the capitalist class in symbiosis; there, a monopoly is a way to cut coupons for the biggest fishes.

So the solution would be to abandon capitalism and become communist?
If you believe that communist systems are not corrupt then you really know nothing about communism at all.
If you do not believe me, ask people that actually lived in communist societies ... as e.g. my parents and grandparents did.

Let's go in order:

Yes;
Read my post.
Do you not get tired of using other people as your own puppets for your positions, lazily saying, "Well, go ask..."? Are you so intellectually feeble you cannot do your own research? If you did, you may be surprised by the results from the people who "actually" lived in communist societies. [And isn't Stuttgart in FRG, which probably isn't a state that should be talked about in terms of startling anti-corruption efforts, if one considers how it was swarming with Nazis*?]

*Before someone says I'm contemptuously calling people Nazis; this is a historical fact. Sad, but true.

By the way, it is very funny a lot of you are pointing towards the Russian Federation, which is a pure byproduct of neoliberalism; no lesser luminary than Larry Summers did his grisly shock therapy there. How, my friends, could you explain the startling corruption there, a fruit of our favourite neoliberal ideologues and workers? Please, no orientalism. It's not 1903 anymore.

Not even going to touch the KSA example. Come on? It's literally a kleptocratic monarchy running fossil fuel exploitation for the benefit of U.S imperialists? You have once more ignored the very first sentence of what I said; governance and corruption and property management are an issue of class - and since the bourgeois class wants to profit above anything else (the famed competition; here in Eastern Europe it's less competition and more outright robbery but that is besides the point - that's just the nature of comprador states) this means that any government-ran property under such a system would, also, above all, be to that point. What's so hard about that to grasp?

 

[Tee Kay]

Corruption is what you call other people's priorities that you don't like

What you do for this is study mind control and use your skills to become an advisor to the leader of a superpower. In the midst of the world war you instigated, build a network of Psychic Dominators across the globe, unleashing a tidal wave of psychic energy designed to dominate the minds of the entire planet.

There will be no more free will, only your will.

 

[raystuttgart]

If you did, you may be surprised by the results from the people who "actually" lived in communist societies ...

My family (Germans who had been settling in Romania since the 17th century) fled communist Romania in the early 80`s back to Germany to our relatives so I guess I know a lot of people who actually lived in a commuist society.
I myself was even born in communist Romania ... although I was still too young to really remember how my family fled the iron wall to Western Europe ... just so their child could live a free life.
So please do not try to tell me that you know more people that actuallly lived in a communist society ... as communism and its consequences is actually a huge topic for my family.

And isn't Stuttgart in FRG, which probably isn't a state that should be talked about in terms of startling anti-corruption efforts, if one considers how it was swarming with Nazis*?

Honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about ... as Stuttgart is known to be one of the most liberal cities with one of the lowest crime rates in all of Europe.
As it is a very rich city with lots of industry (Bosch, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, ...) and a lot of migrant workers e.g. from Turkey, Italy, ... so there really is no "swarming with "Nazis" ...
And also I really do not know why you now start to attack Germany or Stutgart ... as Germany is one of the actually quite progressive countries these days.

----------

... calling people Nazis; this is a historical fact.

Yeah, 70 years ago we had Nazi Germany ... still that does not make everybody from Germany today automatically a Nazi ... quite the contrary as most of German society learned its lesson.
So yeah it is a sad fact that Germany had to go through the Nazi regime ... still no argument that should be used easily just to silence somebody because you do not like his opinion.
As a consequence of the 2nd World War Germany was divided in 2 and Eastern Germany became officially socialist (actually communist) ... so Germans also know the dark sides of communism.

----------

So please relax ... don`t start to attack other people`s nationality and heritage for no reason at all.
There is no reason to start calling Germans or people in Stuttgart Nazis ... just because you disagree with one person`s opinion.

Is this normal that people get so personal here if somebody disagrees and makes counter arguments?

 

[raystuttgart]

Nationalisation has been around for ages, and has a ton of examples.

I did not say it did not happened ... I just questioned that the company then was less corrupt or doing better afterwards ...

Some things the government should run (police, army, prisons, strategic assets) other things the private sector (luxury goods) while others can be a hybrid (local amenities, energy producers etc). That's just me.

A mix of public and private companies often also works ... it ensures that the public companies still have to stay competitive and improve.
E.g. I see no issue that e.g. both public and private education exists or e.g. both public and private energy producers exist.

But still being public or private really does not change much considering how corrupt a company is or not.
Humans will always stay humans ... nobody will suddenly get less corrupt or more moral when working in a public company instead of a private one.

 

[Narz]

Always seems to be rich anglo kids who get the most psyched about communism while older eastern europeans are like what?

 

[Birdjaguar]

China is a case study in government corruption at every level. It is such a problem that Xi has made a substantial and very public effort to end it. He has been trying to put an end to both public officials getting rich through bribes and sweet deals and private companies who seek rich contracts that can be completed (or not) with the use of substandard practices. It will be interesting to how successful he is over time. Is everyone corrupt? No, but there are enough people who will seek a "money for nothing" solution to give everyone else a bad name. The M&A splurge of the 80s and 90s in the US was a huge scam used to enrich bankers and deal makers who put deals together for buyer and sellers of companies that usually screwed everyone involved except the deal makers and CEOs. Corruption is not always illegal and it happens at the level of big companies and big government as well as at the transaction level of everyday folks going about their business.

 

[raystuttgart]

Spoiler :

Most people in the west have no idea how privileged they are to live in a capitalist and democratic society ...
People all over the world are trying to become more like the west and throw off the shackles of unjust governments and regimes.

Still some people in the west are like:
"Take away all our rights as idividuals, take away our private businesses, take away our freedom of speech !"

I really do not get it ... it is like people are begging for mysery because they do not enjoy being free.
And once somebody else tells them that this may not be the smartest move he gets insulted as Nazi ...

---------

Corruption is not going to be solved by taking away wealth from people or condeming those who actually built something.
Quite the contrary ... all empric data shows that the poorer a society is the more corrupt it gets ... out of desparation.

Solution to corruption is to try to create transparency ... which may be hard to achieve though.
And maybe also a bit more cooperation and less constant fighting in society ...

Corruptions is first of all a matter of society and culture.
The more you respect the society you live in ... the less likely you want to steal from it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

if one considers how it was swarming with Nazis*?]

Moderator Action: You frequently make all kinds of claims about Nazi this and Nazi that. At this point you are just trolling. In a thread about corruption there is no need to bring Nazis into it. Please do not bring them into the conversation again. Thanks. If you have questions, you can pm me.

 

[Farm Boy]

China is a case study in government corruption at every level. It is such a problem that Xi has made a substantial and very public effort to end it. He has been trying to put an end to both public officials getting rich through bribes and sweet deals and private companies who seek rich contracts that can be completed (or not) with the use of substandard practices. It will be interesting to how successful he is over time. Is everyone corrupt? No, but there are enough people who will seek a "money for nothing" solution to give everyone else a bad name. The M&A splurge of the 80s and 90s in the US was a huge scam used to enrich bankers and deal makers who put deals together for buyer and sellers of companies that usually screwed everyone involved except the deal makers and CEOs. Corruption is not always illegal and it happens at the level of big companies and big government as well as at the transaction level of everyday folks going about their business.

Savings and loan needed a huge retributive bodycount that we never got. We just got the suicides while they giggled to themselves. Rope was practically invented for such creatures.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Savings and loan needed a huge retributive bodycount that we never got. We just got the suicides while they giggled to themselves. Rope was practically invented for such creatures.

There should be special prisons for bankers and their friends in finance. If all "banking and related" crimes had mandatory prison time and automatic wealth reduction, we might see fewer incidence of turmoil.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah! Little underground boxes sound about right.