How to get good prose?

[Mouthwash]

Read this.

If you're really interested in improving your prose I would recommend:

1. Learning the elements of English grammar
2. Close reading of writers whom you admire
3. Lots of writing on your end
4. Most important to step 3, after you finish writing, take a sober and measured evaluation of what you produced. Identify what you did well and what needs work. Maybe list out your weaknesses on a piece of paper and keep them handy while writing.

An important thought on editing: the editing process is finished, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. When you are editing your paper, with every word, every sentence, and every paragraph, you should be asking yourself, "Do I really need this to be here?"

By close reading I mean, as was said above, spending a long time breaking down the prose of your peers into its basest elements, and understanding how they do what they do. From there you can begin to develop your own style and thereby grow as a writer.

I'll get both (and Stephen King's On Writing). I'm pretty sure I'll find a PDF online or something instead of having to buy them.

 

[sophie]

I'll get both (and Stephen King's On Writing). I'm pretty sure I'll find a PDF online or something instead of having to buy them.

http://installldownload.com/d/

That's the free pdf of Strunk and White.

This book may also be of use.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It seems that I can't wrap my head around the art of writing well. I've read a huge amount and can read faster (naturally, with no speed-reading techniques) than anyone I've ever met, including adults. But this doesn't seem to have bled over into my own writing.

I actually write fiction myself, and do so reasonably well, but it takes like an hour to crank out a single paragraph. Usually each sentence gets written three times over and requires deep thinking to create in the first place. I'm simply horrible at diction, and it reflects in my posts. This is a sample of my attempt (via email) to defend US unipolarity in the modern world:

"We are so integrated with the world economy and political hierarchy that disregarding state power in favor of some categorical imperative would lead to global chaos."

Does that sound like someone who knows what he's talking about to you? The concepts are there, and the thought process is there, but the words aren't.

On the other hand, most others don't seem to have this problem. TF has the best prose and vocabulary I've ever seen, and can express it so concisely it's like an economy of language. It seems as natural as breathing for him. I also like ParkCungHee and Crezth based on style and their smooth, logical flow. Other than that, there aren't many exceptional writers on here, but I've found plenty in other forums.

When I want to say something complicated or hard to express I generally try and recall words or phrases others have used in similar situations and try and fit it in, but it never sticks with me. I've steadily improved my prose over the last few years, probably from being around so many well-spoken people, and now I've hit a wall. I don't want to grow up and go to college like this, where essays will take five times as long as they should because while the concepts and arguments are elementary for me, I can never, ever put it on paper without huge effort.

If you assume that everyone who posts here presents their best writing, you are surely wrong. There are many excellent writers here. Try reading some of the NESing stories and updates. Good writing takes work, especially, when presenting complex ideas. An internet forum is not the usual place for polished and well edited text.

 

[Synobun]

If you assume that everyone who posts here presents their best writing, you are surely wrong. There are many excellent writers here. Try reading some of the NESing stories and updates. Good writing takes work, especially, when presenting complex ideas. An internet forum is not the usual place for polished and well edited text.

This is a good point. I exert pretty much no effort in attempting to write well on CFC. I've been here since I was 12 so pretty much any sentence that is grammatically correct and spelled correctly I'm content with.

Since my career is writing, I just default to a type of "not caring" communication on forums. I imagine if I didn't write well for a living I'd take a bit more time to craft posts that exhibit my true genius intellect.

 

[Mouthwash]

If you assume that everyone who posts here presents their best writing, you are surely wrong. There are many excellent writers here. Try reading some of the NESing stories and updates. Good writing takes work, especially, when presenting complex ideas. An internet forum is not the usual place for polished and well edited text.

I'm talking about people who are so good at writing that they sound like poets at five in the morning. Traitorfish constantly sounds like he's plagiarized a doctoral dissertation even when he's making small talk. I've met people who are almost as good, and I'm pretty sure they don't all do extensive revision on their posts.

 

[Murky]

This is something else worth checking out when you get chance. I've use his tips more than once.

250 Things You Should Know About Writing by Chuck Wendig
http://www.amazon.com/Things-Should-Know-About-Writing-ebook/dp/B005D4Y2GQ

 

[Kyriakos]

If you are mostly thinking of writing that is centered on self-expression and not as heavily reliant on needed compliance to specific norms, then i could mention that in order to write "well" you should never try to calculate what that writing would have to be like, but instead to examine how you can allow your own expression to manifest in written form.*
In the end, not all people have hugely interesting things to say, but many people have interesting things to say yet they do not know how to express them in a manner which would allow their reader to notice the sentences as important to himself as well.

*Do note that i am not advocating any writing style largely unintelligible to others. Writing should always, in my view, consist of terms and format which by itself invites the reader to enjoy it, regardless of what the actual topic of the writing is or its underlying potential for complexity.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

That's the problem. Technical terminology often eludes me, even if I'm more than familiar with the subject at hand. The US's economy is globalized. China creates growth by exporting to us. Arab countries sell oil to us. Japan maintains high tech industries by trading with us. When we hit a recession, the world quickly follows. How do I articulate that? All that integration creates conflict, and an awful lot lot of countries depend on us to prevent it. For instance, Saudi Arabia needs us to pressure Iran, Japan and China might take unilateral action against each other if not for the fact that US interest requires that they both remain stable, etc. Withdrawing military and financial support for other countries would thus lead to chaos, as each state tried to act in its own interest in the new global order. That's pretty hard to word, even if I had split it up into multiple sentences.

I understood this post. I had only the vaguest idea of what you were talking about in the sentence people have been discussing (ie. what is a "categorical imperative"?).

 

[Antilogic]

I know it sounds like a dumb idea, but I find highlighting ideas and sections of text like I did above very helpful for writing drafts, whether it's for term papers or more professional publications. It keeps your thoughts organized.

 

[Camikaze]

I agree with Owen's suggestion of reading the sort of thing you want to emulate. If you read court judgments (particularly English stuff from the middle of the last century, given the judges were all classically trained Oxbridgians), you'll improve your legal writing. If you read lots of fiction, you'll become better at dialogue. If you read German political scientists, you will know how to cure insomnia. You must slay the dragon to absorb its soul. Or something.

 

[JohannaK]

Why, pretty much all I read is fiction and I feel I suck at dialogue.

 

[JohannaK]

Art consumption does not begat art production.

Very true, but it surely helps get a grasp of what art is. That's something useful to know if you are going to produce art of the same kind.

Oh god I'm loving this thread. I suck so much at writing so this is brilliant.

Me too.

It's extremely important to read other people's stuff when writing. Good stuff, mind you. You know why so much teenage diary poetry doesn't resonate with people? Because the aforementioned teenagers don't actually read that much.

http://teenangstpoetry.blogspot.dk/

I find a peculiar charm within it myself, but I sure guess other people don't.

Ugh, it's really terrible poetry.
Even the poetry I write is better. I barely write poetry, but when I do it's pretty crappy.

If you are mostly thinking of writing that is centered on self-expression and not as heavily reliant on needed compliance to specific norms, then i could mention that in order to write "well" you should never try to calculate what that writing would have to be like, but instead to examine how you can allow your own expression to manifest in written form.*
In the end, not all people have hugely interesting things to say, but many people have interesting things to say yet they do not know how to express them in a manner which would allow their reader to notice the sentences as important to himself as well.

*Do note that i am not advocating any writing style largely unintelligible to others. Writing should always, in my view, consist of terms and format which by itself invites the reader to enjoy it, regardless of what the actual topic of the writing is or its underlying potential for complexity.

I see this as one example of needlessly complex writing that should generally be avoided.

"[...]to examine how you can allow your own expression to manifest in written form." Makes me feel dizzy.

"[...]to think how you can write down your thoughts." I find to be a much more simple, concise and understandable sentence. Excuses if it doesn't convey the same meaning you tried to convey in yours. If that were the case, it would just prove my point.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Luckily there is no need to prove your actual intention anyway

fwiw 'expression' is not something readily identical whether in written form or as part of speech or even behavior. Your sentence has little to do with my own.

 

[sophie]

Why, pretty much all I read is fiction and I feel I suck at dialogue.

There is a very big difference between consumption and digestion.

 

[Mouthwash]

I understood this post. I had only the vaguest idea of what you were talking about in the sentence people have been discussing (ie. what is a "categorical imperative"?).

I think it's like a ethical imperative that everybody is supposed to follow... I'm not really sure, though.

 

[JohannaK]

There is a very big difference between consumption and digestion.

I was talking to Cami.

 

[Borachio]

I understood this post. I had only the vaguest idea of what you were talking about in the sentence people have been discussing (ie. what is a "categorical imperative"?).

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Anyway, I looked it up.

categorical imperative noun, philosophy (in Kantian ethics) an unconditional moral obligation which is binding in all circumstances and is not dependent on a person's inclination or purpose.

So, just an imperative, I think. But a very strong one, perhaps. Though, since imperatives are normally essential, I don't see much difference between a categorical imperative and an imperative.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Categorical imperative was just Kant's (false) idea that his (supposed) compulsion was somehow philosophically backed.

 

[Camikaze]

I was talking to Cami.

Well I guess it's not just a matter of simply reading, but of digesting while you're reading. So if you're reading for the purpose of learning how to write, you should pick up things.

Although, just because you're bad at dialogue doesn't mean reading hasn't made you better.

 

[Gori the Grey]

The way I understand "categorical imperative" is that, in determining whether a particular action would be ethical, you ask yourself, "if my motivation for acting as I plan to do were a universal law, would I approve of that?" If you can say yes, then your course of action is ethical.

I've always wondered whether it isn't a sort of fancy-schmanzy version of the golden rule. When I next meet a Kantian, I mean to ask that.

Now, back to the writing lessons: Mouthwash, never use a term whose meaning you don't understand.

I once wrote a limerick on the categorical imperative:

There once was a thinker named Kant
Who said you could do what you want
As long as you'd be
As happy for me
To do it, if not you just kan't.