[BTS] How to play Stalin effectively? (Monarch level training)

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Here's the progress with whipping:

So it seems Augustus has not improved the cow yet, and he whipped another archer.
Is that typical for the AI, when under pressure or just here in K-Mod?

Augustus seems to be crippled for now.

In capital I switch to lib, when Writing is ready, this way the granary will finished by overflow, even when I concentrate on growth. Need to calculate then again.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Two turns later:

He attacked my spying warrior with 2 archers. One was killed, the other survived. Now I know that I need the warriors.

I think about whipping and chopping the same time at St Petersburg, even when the pop is low. This way I get enough overflow gold, and but is multiplied x2 because of the AGG trait. Additionally it's 1 more warrior and I need them urgently.

Calculation:

18/50 + 6 prod + 2x30 (whip) + 2x20 (chop) makes 124/50, makes >60 overflow gold. This way I can let slider at 100% until HBR instead of 90%

__________________

Did it, but got only 15 overflow gold. Can anyone explain the mechanic? What was my mistake?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Waiting for your feedback now until I progress.

In general I would like to get some feedback for the midgame and especially the use of great people. While the start is rather uncomplicated and easy understandable, the complexity goes up quick.

In this game I now stand between different ways to play:

A) I could still try to build the oracle, because (i) noone build stonehenge, (ii) first religions is founded just now (2120 BC), (iii) I can get marble. I would take metal casting or HBR.
Oracle needs 13-15 turns to start, with marble 20 turns, finish in ~7 turns without marble.
Competitors: 2 unknown, ~8 turns ahead (they need Priesthood)

B) I could try to build GLH, because (i) i see about the religions screen that are only 10 citys all in all, (ii) most folks started without coast (see demographics)
This needs 11 turns (after Priesthood 9 turns) to research, ~15 turns to build and could be focused directly after Priesthood
Competitors: 2 unknown, maybe coastal capitals

C) I could focus on HBR and rush Augustus and maybe Vicci

D) I could just expand and get another 2 cities

Mh. Intuition says: Go both for A) and B), take HBR with Oracle and thenafter expand and try the rush.

 

[sampsa]

Again, I would not 1-pop whip chariots, especially without a granary. With the tiles your capital has, you don't need to whip. Give corn to 2nd city when you reach -cap.

If you can safely settle the rice city, I would. Again, it would be much easier if you get out of the war to re-declare at HBR.

 

[konata_LS]

Little Question: When I get some cheap techs from the AI by peace treatment, then it could trigger WFYABTA ?

Yes, it counts towards WFYABTA. But this problem can be solved by capitulating the AIs. Once an AI capitulates to you and becomes your vassal, you can trade unlimitedly with this AI.

Another thing to mention is: the techs you get through trades before you meet an AI doesn't count into this unknown AI's WFYABTA. Such things often happen in Continents/Fractal maps. For example in your current game, in 2200BC there are still 2 AIs that you haven't met yet. So, all the techs you get from AC or Vicky in 2200BC won't affect those 2 unknown opponents.

 

[jnebbe]

You need to have a plan and focus everything into that plan. For example it doesn't make sense to tech mysticiscm+meditation+priesthood+masonry and then oracle HBR when you could just tech HBR in the first place. You could probably kill off both ais by the time you would've even completed oracle if you went HBR immediately. (I'd probably HBR as soon as I see horses, writing for libraries doesn't help with a horse archer rush, maybe worth replaying so you see how strong a streamlined horse archer rush can be)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Another thing to mention is: the techs you get through trades before you meet an AI doesn't count into this unknown AI's WFYABTA. Such things often happen in Continents/Fractal maps. For example in your current game, in 2200BC there are still 2 AIs that you haven't met yet. So, all the techs you get from AC or Vicky in 2200BC won't affect those 2 unknown opponents.

Let me ask back, because I read two different interpretations: Do I have to meet the other AI or do my trading partner has to meet the other AI to trigger other AIs WFY?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You need to have a plan and focus everything into that plan. For example it doesn't make sense to tech mysticiscm+meditation+priesthood+masonry and then oracle HBR when you could just tech HBR in the first place. You could probably kill off both ais by the time you would've even completed oracle if you went HBR immediately. (I'd probably HBR as soon as I see horses, writing for libraries doesn't help with a horse archer rush, maybe worth replaying so you see how strong a streamlined horse archer rush can be)

Thats not really right, because HBR needs 13 turns, which is more than getting into priesthood.
But with the Oracle-Path I get into more techs, needing just some turns more, but instead opening the way to monarchy. And with Oracle I prevent a strong tech boost for another AI, securing my position.

But you are generally right: I sometimes rather focus on "how to prevent the AI getting..." instead of "how to come to point X as fast as possible".

This way I will dismiss the GLH now, instead going for

- Iron Working (I need to see if Augustus and Vicci have iron)
- Maths -> Construction

Dismissing GLH gets me the 11 turns in research. Additionally I dismiss the water-related techs.

General plan for the next 20 turns:
- Oracle!
- Tech: Archery, Iron Working (after Oracle)
- Build warriors and chariots, eventually settling the western area
- Build horse archers after HBR

How would you calculate the number of troops to attack?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Year 2080 BC

Augustus tried to attack with one archer. Another archer in the north killed my scout.
Road to Vicci finished one turn after Writing.

Lib has started and will be whipped in 2 turns.
Northern city will chop-whip the barrack to give me a bunch of gold and a chariot to secure the west.

Buddhism was founded 3 turns ago, we now run for Oracle. When we don't get it, we get a good bunch of failgold - this way we could even upgrade the chariots into horse archers ;-)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Year 1960 BC

The chop-whip gave me additional money. This way I can 100% research the next 10 turns.
Vicci gives me 1C only, her two cities seem to be not bound already. She generally seems not to work optimally, e.g. she has a hut on the cow SW of the lake.

I whipped the lib. Let's look how many turns it take until I get the ele. The worker prechop now.

Soon border pop lets me see more of the western area, easpecially if Augustus build a city next my preferred spot or not.

Like you see, I gambled and sacrificed one turn to take part in the Hinduism Race. The AIs seem not focussed into religion (Buddhism first in 2200 BC!), so there's some real chance.

Here are the demographics:

That's completely untypical for Stalin. Thanks again to @Fippy for the suggestion with Pottery before BW. This way we are ahead in research.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Year 1840 BC:

It's getting exciting. Who will found Hinduism?

Year 1800 BC:

Soooo. Now we have another situation. We need to lower the GNP by culture value, which is now +7. But even then we are +4 ahead.

Hinduism was founded in St. Petersburg. Of course I don't convert now.
The founder of buddhism (and the competitor for Oracle) is Vicci. This is the reason, why her southern city border-popped so fast.

Eles will take still some turns, here we have 43:47 now. The hill at augustus will soon switch to us.

And well.... Augustus don't want to make peace, but that's okay. In some turns the second chariot is ready, every build with baracks. When necessary, we won't make peace. And he is threaten us:

So I need to build some warriors. My cap is on a hill, my warriors get +25% against archers. I relocate the workers to build a road in the floodplain east of the cap. This way I can use the chariots to shatter some of the archers and get them back after attack.

Mh... defending and building Oracle the same time is a horsehockey situation... but I have 4 warriors and 2 chariots and a city on a hill and behind a river against 5 archers...


So let's plan the further steps and the extinction of Augustus: I need your opinion

1. When his attack failed, he maybe wants to make peace. If I make peace, buddhism could spread to Rome meanwhile, making it harder to redeclare war because of Vicci. Additionally he is weakened and I could use this to run into him with a first army (not to conquer, but to spy and maybe destroy important places). Would you really make peace with him now instead of weaken him?

2. Actually he has 2 archers and +40% in his cap. What would be your attack force, when u don't have catas yet? What if there were 5 archers again?

3. After priesthood there would be a small room for developing first monotheism and thenafter archery. This way the other 2 AIs won't have any early religion, and we have 3 here. This could benefit in a culture victory long-term and cost me only 6 turns. Additionally Organized religion is possible (I wouldn't develop that, when I cannot found Judaism) and I get another strong culture-production. I think about this only because I was winner in the Hinduism-Race and am the strongest commerce-powerhouse. In fact Augustus cannot get much stronger than now, cause he lacks commerce, meaning I would have time to build a solid fundament. En plus I could even dismiss the whole HBR plan and choose Theology instead of HBR. What would you do?

 

[jnebbe]

Thats not really right, because HBR needs 13 turns, which is more than getting into priesthood.
But with the Oracle-Path I get into more techs, needing just some turns more, but instead opening the way to monarchy. And with Oracle I prevent a strong tech boost for another AI, securing my position.

But you are generally right: I sometimes rather focus on "how to prevent the AI getting..." instead of "how to come to point X as fast as possible".

This way I will dismiss the GLH now, instead going for

- Iron Working (I need to see if Augustus and Vicci have iron)
- Maths -> Construction

Dismissing GLH gets me the 11 turns in research. Additionally I dismiss the water-related techs.

General plan for the next 20 turns:
- Oracle!
- Tech: Archery, Iron Working (after Oracle)
- Build warriors and chariots, eventually settling the western area
- Build horse archers after HBR

How would you calculate the number of troops to attack?

You're missing the point, yes if you go Oracle route you'll have more techs, but those techs are not useful to you right now. Temples and monasteries take tons of hammers which could go towards settlers/workers instead. Founding religions doesn't have a huge benefit either; the main benefit being that you can build a shrine later but that takes so long to be worth it. Oracleing monarchy is not bad but HR isn't that good when you still only have 2 cities, not to mention you'll have ivory soon for an extra +1 happiness

And again looking at your plan for the next 20 turns, if you want to kill rome with horse archers, why not go for HBR immediately? Don't waste time/hammers building libraries and chariots which won't help that goal at all, instead quickly get 2 or 3 cities and a barracks or 2 and then put every hammer/chop/whip into a horse archer.

 

[sampsa]

Remember when my first instinct to worker stealing was that it is madness? Now it's T55, you have only 2 cities and you are not producing a 3rd settler even. The spot in the west is pretty good even.

Like jnebbe points out, there has been no focus so far in what you've done. The religious line is a distraction from what you actually want to be doing, but I guess you can't switch away from it now.

I would not care one single bit what Vic thinks about you re-declaring as she is your next target anyway. You are correct that you focus too much on what AI does. It doesn't matter, just focus on coming up with a sound plan and executing it as well as you can.

So let's plan the further steps and the extinction of Augustus: I need your opinion

1. When his attack failed, he maybe wants to make peace. If I make peace, buddhism could spread to Rome meanwhile, making it harder to redeclare war because of Vicci. Additionally he is weakened and I could use this to run into him with a first army (not to conquer, but to spy and maybe destroy important places). Would you really make peace with him now instead of weaken him?

2. Actually he has 2 archers and +40% in his cap. What would be your attack force, when u don't have catas yet? What if there were 5 archers again?

3. After priesthood there would be a small room for developing first monotheism and thenafter archery. This way the other 2 AIs won't have any early religion, and we have 3 here. This could benefit in a culture victory long-term and cost me only 6 turns. Additionally Organized religion is possible (I wouldn't develop that, when I cannot found Judaism) and I get another strong culture-production. I think about this only because I was winner in the Hinduism-Race and am the strongest commerce-powerhouse. In fact Augustus cannot get much stronger than now, cause he lacks commerce, meaning I would have time to build a solid fundament. En plus I could even dismiss the whole HBR plan and choose Theology instead of HBR. What would you do?

1. Yes, take peace when available as that allows you to settle 3rd city.

2. Let's say 1,6 HAs vs his 1 archer. So if he has 5 archers, I'd go with 8 or so. Agains 2 archers 4 will do, assuming you can attack on the same turn you declare.

3.Forget religions, it does nothing for you. Culture is nothing compared to brute force. You already chose war with your worker steal. Oracle HBR and take them both out.

 

[konata_LS]

Let me ask back, because I read two different interpretations: Do I have to meet the other AI or do my trading partner has to meet the other AI to trigger other AIs WFY?

It's the first case: you have to meet the AI to trigger this AI's WFYABTA.
For example:
in your current Stalin game, if in 1000BC Victoria meets a mysterious AI X of another continent, but you don't know X. All the techs you get from Vicky before you meet X won't trigger X's WFYABTA limit towards you, because X doesn't know your existence. So, when you meet X in 1000AD, X is willing to trade techs with you.
By contrast, all the techs Vicky gets from you after 1000BC will count into X's WFYABTA limit towards Vicky. X may stop trading techs with Victoria in 500AD if Vicky gets several techs from you and AC.

Agree with sampsa and jnebbe, if you want wars, focus on the wars. Religions and culture are a distraction. The only case you need Monarchy for your war is when you're ready to Feudalism and accept your enemy's capitulation.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

It's the first case: you have to meet the AI to trigger this AI's WFYABTA.
For example:
in your current Stalin game, if in 1000BC Victoria meets a mysterious AI X of another continent, but you don't know X. All the techs you get from Vicky before you meet X won't trigger X's WFYABTA limit towards you, because X doesn't know your existence. So, when you meet X in 1000AD, X is willing to trade techs with you.
By contrast, all the techs Vicky gets from you after 1000BC will count into X's WFYABTA limit towards Vicky. X may stop trading techs with Victoria in 500AD if Vicky gets several techs from you and AC.

OK, thank you. That means generally, that selling cheap techs is good to stop tech-trading between the AIs? Is it the count of techs or the count of trades? And does techs count, which come from ended wars or be gifted?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You're missing the point, yes if you go Oracle route you'll have more techs, but those techs are not useful to you right now. Temples and monasteries take tons of hammers which could go towards settlers/workers instead. Founding religions doesn't have a huge benefit either; the main benefit being that you can build a shrine later but that takes so long to be worth it. Oracleing monarchy is not bad but HR isn't that good when you still only have 2 cities, not to mention you'll have ivory soon for an extra +1 happiness

And again looking at your plan for the next 20 turns, if you want to kill rome with horse archers, why not go for HBR immediately? Don't waste time/hammers building libraries and chariots which won't help that goal at all, instead quickly get 2 or 3 cities and a barracks or 2 and then put every hammer/chop/whip into a horse archer.

That's the point about culture: Are you sure, that I get the ivory?
The ivory will be conquered by amassing culture. Here religions may help (when founded in capital or spread to capital), without libraries I hardly get enough culture. And the Oracle gives additional culture. So let Vicci build e.g. Stonehenge, then the ivory is her over a very long time...

This game is won by a strange combination of warfare and culture, it seems.

 

[sampsa]

That's the point about culture: Are you sure, that I get the ivory?

You get the ivory when you capture London.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

OK, let's play further. Let me summarize my thoughts, based on your comments:

I decided to follow the religion path until judaism, thenafter go into archery, IW, maths and construction. Relatively to the case the army will consist of pure horse archers, swords, axes or later elephants and maybe some assisting archers.

The culture path (lib, wonder, religion) here is an OK solution, because culture will give ivory and it helped to (1) more science and (2) more important tiles. It can be done, but not overdone. But after judaism there's no need to follow further. Judaism is a nice "quick win", which takes not too long, but will help long-term. En plus the culture path helps to win the culture war against Vicci - she built stonehenge and founded buddhism.

@sampsa : You are right about peace. I could take the western place as a future commerce center.

 

[sampsa]

I decided to follow the religion path until judaism, thenafter go into archery, IW, maths and construction. Relatively to the case the army will consist of pure horse archers, swords, axes or later elephants and maybe some assisting archers.

The culture path (lib, wonder, religion) here is an OK solution, because culture will give ivory and it helped to (1) more science and (2) more important tiles. It can be done, but not overdone. But after judaism there's no need to follow further. Judaism is a nice "quick win", which takes not too long, but will help long-term. En plus the culture path helps to win the culture war against Vicci - she built stonehenge and founded buddhism.

Again, totally bizarre decisions. You are either not listening or not understanding what people are suggesting. Of course you can play as you please though.

 

[soundjata]

Is Stalin stalling?