[BTS] How to play Stalin effectively? (Monarch level training)

[Master_Of_Ideas]

1480 BC

The archers wandered around. I have luck they pillaged nothing now they stand in the wood.

We are 2 turns before monotheism and 3 turns before oracle/HBR.
I managed to kill 2 archers on open field, lost 1 chariot. Now I have 3 chariots and 5 warriors against these 3 and one wandering archer in the north.

To keep path with development I decided to let St. Peterburg "build 10 " every turn in form of the wonder. It's just too good to ignore, and 10 mean 3 rounds 100% slider. And when the wonders isn't finished after the war, we can complete it for ourselves. I let build the city until I can build horse archers.

_____________________

Question aside: Would you build stables in the actual state? It gives me one more promotion.


_____________________

1440 BC

Augustus 3 archers ran into the open field, where I could kill them with lost of one chariot. Now he would make peace. I do it for 10 turns, I need the time to build up enough defence for the western city.

Now I switched St. Petersburg to build settler, thanks @sampsa for emphasizing that. Let's make good use of it ; )

Let's look at Vicci now:

Vicci does strange things: Instead of building huts and roads she removes a jungle. Building a road would grant her 2
So maybe there's iron around?

The other worker builds a cottage at a plain

Is that standard AI behavior?

1400 BC

But.... Augustus has a settler in his capital!
Will he take away my spot?

Augustus now can build pastures, making his capital much stronger in . So he has seen the horses in the SW

1360 BC

So HBR is in and the culture will help getting the ivory now.

Augustus seems to plan his next city at the southwestern coast. The settler isn't in capital and not on the way to the north.

Now I need you with some decisions:

1. What to build now after Oracle? There's a chariot left in the pipe. But I could build a worker to quicken the overall production. There would be the option to build a stable. A strange but thinkable way is to start Artemis, the Mids or the Great Wall here to get failgold (12 for now), more, when we connected the marble. Remember:I was the first for Hinduism, so there will be not many civs who can start Artemis soon.

2. Generally: Should I build stables or focus on the HA instead? Stable is worth one HA in , but is a long-term great investment. Maybe not in St Petersburg, cause we will lose some there in the future, when Calender comes up.

3. I have a great general (this is one great advance because of the war). What would you do with him? I tend to settle him at the cap, cause the capital is actually the strongest military production. But the capital will be used for wonders in future too, so he may be not useful.

4. Would you emphasize scouting and/or peaceful expansion in the north besides the building of the army? Because 2 of my 3 spots I lack in production, and its not sure that I can conquer Augustus that fast.

5. When would you think about first conquering Vicci, thenafter Augustus?

6. Would you change civics and/or religion?

 

[sampsa]

1. What to build now after Oracle? There's a chariot left in the pipe. But I could build a worker to quicken the overall production. There would be the option to build a stable. A strange but thinkable way is to start Artemis, the Mids or the Great Wall here to get failgold (12 for now), more, when we connected the marble. Remember:I was the first for Hinduism, so there will be not many civs who can start Artemis soon.

2. Generally: Should I build stables or focus on the HA instead? Stable is worth one HA in , but is a long-term great investment. Maybe not in St Petersburg, cause we will lose some there in the future, when Calender comes up.

3. I have a great general (this is one great advance because of the war). What would you do with him? I tend to settle him at the cap, cause the capital is actually the strongest military production. But the capital will be used for wonders in future too, so he may be not useful.

4. Would you emphasize scouting and/or peaceful expansion in the north besides the building of the army? Because 2 of my 3 spots I lack in production, and its not sure that I can conquer Augustus that fast.

5. When would you think about first conquering Vicci, thenafter Augustus?

6. Would you change civics and/or religion?

1. Build HAs. Don't build a stable. Don't failgold, build HAs.

2. Build HAs.

3. Settling is ok, but I'd rather attach it to three HAs to reach 10xp for triple promo.

4. No scouting, no expansion, all effort must be on building HAs asap.

5. When you can do it.

6. No. Note how you gained absolutely nothing from monotheism, just delayed archery.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Again, totally bizarre decisions. You are either not listening or not understanding what people are suggesting. Of course you can play as you please though.

Let's please accept it
It is a decision which weighs long-term advantages bigger than short-term advantages. Your hint has at least moved me not to be too radical oracling another religion.

Now we are here and the culture does the necessary to get the elephants peacefully, meaning I can concentrate on Augustus now. We will now go into your preferred war mode.

_________________

Your position at the questions let me doubt, whether it was a good decision to build the settler. The new city will cost commerce, delaying construction. It can come contribute in building some warriors or archers by whip, but that will take some turns and will take away 2 or 3 turns.

What's your opinion about Iron Working in this actual case? Better this or concentrate on construction?

I have the elephants for save now, thanks of oracle, library and religion. And that against the stonehenge wonder. En plus the culture will grow into Augustus land, in some turns the first floodplain convert, further delaying his growth.

 

[sampsa]

It is a decision which weighs long-term advantages bigger than short-term advantages.

No. It's yet another decision that doesn't aim at doing what you are doing in the most efficient fashion. You are trying to do everything at the same time, but the game doesn't work like that.

Now we are here and the culture does the necessary to get the elephants peacefully, meaning I can concentrate on Augustus now. We will now go into your preferred war mode.

My preferred war mode? You stole the worker, starting this mess. You are obsessing over ivory. All this battle is totally moot (as it usually is), since you could do the same with brute force.

Your position at the questions let me doubt, whether it was a good decision to build the settler.

You were way too slow at building it. You can't do many things at the same time (culture, expand, war buildup).

What's your opinion about Iron Working in this actual case? Better this or concentrate on construction?

What good would IW do? Construction might be needed against Vicky, but not sure. You have access to HAs. For the tenth time, you should aim at building a big enough force of them to take Rome at least. As fast as you can.

I have the elephants for save now, thanks of oracle, library and religion.

You could also have used those for HAs. Then you could attack sooner and you'd get your ivory anyway.

 

[Gwaja]

At this point, as @sampsa and others critically pointed out, consider just going full out on building Horse Archers. I also think you are trying to do too much all at the same time. You have 2 very close neighbors who are neither aggressive nor protective. Taking away their land ensures that you get their land, instead of pity culture wars. Since they only have 2 cities at max, your 2 cities should be enough to grow sufficient number of Horse Archers.

I would personally make Rome the first priority. Don't wait until he gets Praetorians.

It is all about speed with Horse Archer rush. Earlier you do it the better, to ensure that you deal with less city defenders, and possibly even avoid their metal units.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I thought about your feedback. The thought to go for culture victory seems not that interesting now. Stalin is a strong warmonger, so he should get 3 strong production cities as fast as possible. Maybe the religional path wasn't that strong, cause beneath Masonry no tech has an immediate return.

OK, but now let's go into it:

1200 BC

Army: 4 chariots, 4 warriors, first HA

I think about a second worker stealing. 4 turns until peace can be ended... in 4 turns I know if there's iron around, which can make things complicated...

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

1040 BC

There's no iron around. One single place is in the north. The AI have no walls. Augustus build another settler, still holding just 2 archers in his cap.
When I declare war I can run directly to the cap (thanks of my culture-cap) in 1 turn

Army: Next turn 4 HAs, 4 chariots, 4 warriors

What would be the stronger way?

A) Developing maths without direct effect
B) Developing Alphabet, after capturing 1-2 cities peace-deal with August to press some techs out of him, then redeclare war after 10 turns. Meanwhile going to Vicci

I would decide for Alphabet. Construction seems to be something where we could get some help from research-building. When Vicci builds walls, we have to wait in every case, and maybe just conquer the shrine-city at first.

______________

What would be stronger for Vicci?

A) Let Vicci live for now, looking that she doesn't get iron. She's because of stonehenge ~13 tuns away from getting a great priest, which she would use for the shrine. Declaring war after shrine is built
B) Attack Vicci as soon as possible

At BTS Barracks give 3 EXP. This way the HAs in my capital (settled general) start with 5 EXP. Which promo would you give them? Double star, double withdrawal or mixed? One of my chariots is healer. He will lead the troops as general in future.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

975 BC

Augustus converts to hinduism - well... now he and Victoria aren't best friends anymore ;-)

He is going to settle with 2 archers... when they are settled, I am on my hill...

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

950 BC

"I oversee, if you settle at the right places!"

The spot is far away, so the archers cannot help the cap. Muhahahaha!

925 BC

Let's say "Hi!"

One last HA, build in the cap, will take the worker. We are just worker-stealing ; )

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

900 BC

I am getting weak. This is just too interesting.

Priests mean cash, when u have holy cities... and the HAs do their work on a good matter. I wouldn't eradicate Augustus directly... an when I just get fishing, I get something.

And of course I need to justify my former mistake(?) for getting 2 religions. Then, why not building 2 shrines and conquering a third?

Attack!

Had 63% chance with double star and lost nothing...
We now go west. The southern city is deep in the jungle - not interesting for now.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

850 BC

We converted to hinduism, the extra happiness is great, and consequently going into organized religion now. We could use the 25% boost for the wonder.

So I think about spamming wonders for now... this is my preferred playstyle. But is it the fastest?

Now it's not senseful to attack Augustus now, because he has only a 1 city. So we will consolidate for now, preparing for Vicci.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

675 BC

Alphabet is ready, but we wanted to research fishing before making peace with august, cause he has sailing for sure. If not, he will die. It's 93 beakers. Mh... I am not sure, whether I should really doing peace or look, if he has 2 pop now and I can get the city.

We are consolidating now. The first floodplains have huts, everything has roads. Maybe I will settle a Moai city in the west north of my marked spot C. The eles soon switch to me.

In the north there are 2 interesting spots for 3 commerce cities later:

In the south the last city of Augustus could give a good GP city:

I have one or two strong competitors - and it's not Vicci in gold, just in production.
All in all we now seem to be isolated and without contact to the other 2 civs.

_________________

What would you research in this situation? Maths or maybe currency?
Would you make peace with Augustus, when u can get sailing for that? Would your decision depend on the number of his archers?

Now which strategy would you use to get to a quick goal?
A1) Settling like crazy, even when it shatters the economy
A2) Settling at the coast places in hope, that we borderpop another continent
B) Conquering Vicci as fast as possible
C) Conquering Vissi and pressing techs out of her - But she has no more than Meditation to give...
D) Spamming wonders, e.g the great lib, Mausoleum, Panthenon - or maybe trying the mids?

I am waiting for your advices now.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You invaded Rome with Warriors do you really need to consolidate before invading Vicci ?
This thread is a very good read, props.

Good job scouting north. I was wondering if you had.
With Alphabet, you're going to be able to build Research. Without a neighbour (soon), that will be useful. You should probably prioritize Economic techs, then (Monarchy/Maths/Currency/Code of Laws/Civil Service, that sort of stuff towards Education and Liberalism).
And aim to grow your cities as much as possible. Be sure you have enough workers to improve your land along the way.

Developping the whole continent is top priority. Need dead neighbours to accomplish that.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You invaded Rome with Warriors do you really need to consolidate before invading Vicci ?

Vicci is a bit more tricky.I cannot kill every archer of her, they are just too many. This way cities can contain 6-7 archers when attacked. I can only start with the single northern city, but then I would lose the trade routes. And when I attack just the holy city before shes getting the great priest, she cannot build the shrine for me (shrine will be worth 10-15 pure wealth every turn later. The holy city is still not enough worth for now.

So I am not sure, whether I should wait for catapults and elephants to make the war easier and let her the necessary time to get the Great Priest.

So the question is: How strong do I settle meanwhile and should I start an attack for the northern city before or not? She shouldn't reach the iron (has ironworking already), which would make the war more complicated, so I think about first settling in the north at the only iron spot for myself...

This thread is a very good read, props.

Thank you

Good job scouting north. I was wondering if you had.
With Alphabet, you're going to be able to build Research. Without a neighbour (soon), that will be useful. You should probably prioritize Economic techs, then (Monarchy/Maths/Currency/Code of Laws/Civil Service, that sort of stuff towards Education and Liberalism).
And aim to grow your cities as much as possible. Be sure you have enough workers to improve your land along the way.
Developping the whole continent is top priority. Need dead neighbours to accomplish that.

Yeah, that's true. I would add construction, cause I will need it for Vicci. Would you give the pyramids a try? It's 40 turns... What about wonders in general? So we have only 2 competitors, who built neither stonehenge nor Great Wall until now, and didn't gave priority to religional techs.

This game is getting interesting because of the difficulty building an isolated empire

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh, yes, if it's coming, wait for the Shrine ! You're also right about trade routes being cut during the war (but ultimately we want her dead).

If she has too many units, she will move them around between her cities : position your units between her cities so you can intercept them on flatland. That way, no city bonus, no fortification bonus. Just take your time and try to pick them up, rather than targetting the cities directly.

Yes, having no more neighbours changes the game. Basically cottage every green tile in sight and try to have the population to work it. You're right about wanting to avoid the crash. Mass cottages take time but they will allow you to recover (many workers are needed). Tech choice is tricky. You can Declare Victory once you have your continent, or decide to go to Space, or for Domination. Tech path is tricky.

 

[sampsa]

As I already said before, IW does nothing for you. Straight towards construction was a lot better. I don't know why you waited for so long before re-declaring on Rome, but glad to see the war went well. No idea what happened to your 3rd city, it was never founded. Why aren't you taking Rome's last city asap? I have no idea why you are building a very marginal wonder in your capital instead of just HAs to take over the continent.

I don't know if I seem overly critical as the game is going well, but there is just so much to improve in your game, and you don't seem to listen at all.

 

[Gwaja]

Hmmm... is there a specific reason why you would choose to let Augustus live? Did he have any useful techs you wanted to extort from? Also, I question why the need to build The Temple of Artemis. There is hardly going to be any foreign trade route of significance, and even for a wonder lover like myself, I almost never build that wonder. Better to concentrate all your effort into the war and finish it. Then you can claim the entire continent all to yourself and tech straight toward Astronomy. That should be the goal, in my opinion.

 

[konata_LS]

That means generally, that selling cheap techs is good to stop tech-trading between the AIs? Is it the count of techs or the count of trades? And does techs count, which come from ended wars or be gifted?

To some degree, yes.
The count of techs count. For example, if you give Alphabet to Vicky for Meditation, Fishing, Masonry, and AH in a single trade, this trade will add 4 in AC's WFYABTA towards you.
Yes, the tech you receive in ended wars or AI gifts to you also count into WFYABTA.

Now which strategy would you use to get to a quick goal?

Generally, the quick goal should be coherent with "how do you plan to win the game".
If you want to win conquest or domination, construction and catapults should conquer your continent. After getting the necessary economic techs suggested by @ BiC, Optics - Astronomy should be one of the priorities, as you need galleons for conquer the AIs on other continents.
If you want to win culture, Aesthetics - Literature - Music becomes a priority. You'll need Sistine Chapel, and probably National Epic in your GP farm to get more GArtist. IND + Marble is quite good for culture victory.
If you want to win space, you might want to lib Communism and spam workshop/watermills. Russian UBs are especially nice for space race.

Every player has his/her own preference about victory types. BTS is a game and there are different ways to enjoy it. No shame for space or culture victory.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

To some degree, yes.
The count of techs count. For example, if you give Alphabet to Vicky for Meditation, Fishing, Masonry, and AH in a single trade, this trade will add 4 in AC's WFYABTA towards you.
Yes, the tech you receive in ended wars or AI gifts to you also count into WFYABTA.

Thanks, that made things clear

Generally, the quick goal should be coherent with "how do you plan to win the game".
If you want to win conquest or domination, construction and catapults should conquer your continent. After getting the necessary economic techs suggested by @ BiC, Optics - Astronomy should be one of the priorities, as you need galleons for conquer the AIs on other continents.
If you want to win culture, Aesthetics - Literature - Music becomes a priority. You'll need Sistine Chapel, and probably National Epic in your GP farm to get more GArtist. IND + Marble is quite good for culture victory.
If you want to win space, you might want to lib Communism and spam workshop/watermills. Russian UBs are especially nice for space race.

Every player has his/her own preference about victory types. BTS is a game and there are different ways to enjoy it. No shame for space or culture victory.

Mhh... now it comes that I am fairly unexperienced in Culture Victories.
I won space races, I won Conquest or Domination (I assume both the same), and seldom I won by diplomacy. Culture Victory may be interesting for learning and it shapes my actual game position, having the only 3 religions here at my continent.

So I don't want to decide for a victory for now, but preparing Conquest. For now it's important for me how to work further.

A) After Artemis building settler and settle the north to prevent Vicci getting iron (but that is expensive! I wouldn't settle there if Vicci wasn't here)
B) After Artemis building archers and horse archers to block the roads of victoria until catas are ready, maybe trying to get one or 2 cities directly
C) After Artemis building research to come to construction quicker

It seems that stopping war against Augustus is the most playable way, cause Augustus has 5-6 archers in his last city and it has just pop 1. Better conquer him later.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

As I already said before, IW does nothing for you.

IW brought information, how I should plan the conquest of Vicci (she has IW already!) and Augustus. And when I want to conquer her shrine after building I shouldn't attack now, but prepared for every case. Now I know: As long as Vicci doesn't settle and improve the iron, she has no efficient way to prevent my horse archer attack, so I should observe her progress in the north.

Straight towards construction was a lot better. I don't know why you waited for so long before re-declaring on Rome, but glad to see the war went well.

We made peace (10 turns). This way I still had the option to settle in the west. But in the back-looking it would be better to just make cease-fire. And see: When I had not built the culture buildings I had not the hill, meaning no option for declaring war & conquering rome in 1 turn, en plus I had no possibility to oversee their troops. So maybe without the culture I made war unknowing the outcome, cause I don't know the defence before war.

Back-looking I think, going into oracle instead of HBR was stronger, cause of the culture production, which is mostly used by getting the important hill between Moscow and Rome. Founding judaism was maybe a waste of time, I wouldn't do that again.

IW was for information (who has iron?). When iron would be in my area or in Augustus area, I had changed the way we priorize the war aims. Now: When iron were in Viccis area, I wouldn't declare war before construction. Now I can openly think about the options.

No idea what happened to your 3rd city, it was never founded. Why aren't you taking Rome's last city asap? I have no idea why you are building a very marginal wonder in your capital instead of just HAs to take over the continent.

You also said: Build army first. I came to the same conclusion and it was good, because the new founded city had not contribute the war, but gave costs. Now I know additionally, that I should position it 1N of the planned spot.

Building HAs instead of Artemis is thinkable. I thought about getting the shrine and letting Vicci build a shrine is more important long-term than conquering her fast.

I don't know if I seem overly critical as the game is going well, but there is just so much to improve in your game, and you don't seem to listen at all.

Yea, a bit, but it can help me to differentiate. And I don't need to agree with you. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not.

Learnings:
1. Start: Going into Pottery instead of BW was very strong
2. Culture: Going into culture instead of pure force was strong, cause it helps overall development and gave the important spots
3. Going into oracle instead of HBR was strong, nice bonus was the founding of hinduism, which will give me a steady income soon (Oracle and Artemis give Great Priests soon, I will soon have 3 shrines).
4. Going into judaism instead of war may be wrong, but it prevents the quicker development on other continents and granting me a third shrine...

Sometimes it's not clear to answer what is the best way to win. I would assume that my style would give me some cities less, but more long-term advantages like shrines, more progress in research. But what is better? I don't know.

It's a pity the game is K-Mod. If it were not, I would like to see your playing result at 0AD and compare with mine. Then we could better differentiate what would be the best way.