How would you change China?

[feistymongol]

Ok, so we've seen a multitude of threads about how to destroy China in a myriad of ways does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve it?


As a country with massive potential to do good in this world here are some of my thoughts..

1) Reform the current government..kick out the old communist guard or put them into piddly busywork desk jobs where they can't hurt anyone. Don't change China into a overnight democracy (can you imagine how chaotic that would be with 1.3 billion ppl?) but start a transitional democratic government model with democracy as the end result in mind. Maybe dividing China up into regionally self governed "states" similar to the U.S. would help a lot in organizing such a largely populated country. An eventual national Chinese "government" akin to the U.S. federal government to oversea China's overall development and progression.

2) Maybe a Pan-Asian relationship with nearby countries..i'm sure if China were to drop communism most likely North Korea would follow. This wouldn't be anything like the European-Union but a closely working socio-regional trading relationship with Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea.

3) Government funded education similar to europe and a free university system. Increased funding into education and grants that encourage innovation. Vocational programs for peasants to make use of China's abundant resources and to give them some kind of industrial work.

4) Outside of the immediate urban areas..increased industrialization with environmental awareness as key.

5) Maintain key relationships with the west with countries such as the U.K. and the U.S.

6) Drop the claim on Taiwan but instead agree to some kind of close "commonwealth" type partnership that involves close trading/social ties.

 

[Greadius]

I agree in principle. I believe democracy works best on the local level, and as the population governed by a single democratic unit expands, the voice of each area in that unit becomes more drowned out. I can't imagine a centralized unitary democracy functioning in China.

Many small, rural Chinese areas already have elections of sort, to the People's Congress of over 1,000 representatives. Unfortunately, campaigning is practically illegal, and becoming a candidate that isn't a member of the Communist party is practically illegal. However, its an important foundation (even though the perversion of the democratic process in Russia is believed to be hindering their movement towards democracy).

If the country becomes democratic and guarantee's rights to citizens, the rest is just filling in the blanks and meandering with specifics.
And if a Federalized Democratic China were to emerge, I'm sure Taiwan wouldn't be akin to rejoining in some manner, as one of the territories.

 

[Xiahou-Dun]

I would say if 1, 2 and 5 was done, number 6 would be Taiwan joining back with China.

3. I like, but would hate to think of the cost of a free university system for a country the size of China.

 

[feistymongol]

Originally posted by Xiahou-Dun
I would say if 1, 2 and 5 was done, number 6 would be Taiwan joining back with China.

3. I like, but would hate to think of the cost of a free university system for a country the size of China.

True, but that's why there needs to be a GOOD vocational system too. Realistically, not everyone is suited towards higher education. In some ways I think this is where the U.S. system might be flawed. American colleges will accept practically anyone into our thousands of colleges/universities as long as you have the money to pay for tuition. Honestly, aptitude tests and grades don't mean anything unless you are trying very hard to get into an ivy league school like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.. Vocational programs in the U.S. are generally looked down upon or not taken seriously. I think this is a _BIG_ mistake since you can have a very respectable well paying occupation as a mechanic or some other skilled 'low tech' job that you learn in vocational school. This can be a very good option for people that don't have the money, aptitude, or interest in college.

I'm not saying that people who want to go to school shouldn't have the right to but there should be really good alternatives.

Channel a certain number of the population towards education..and the rest into building up an industrial/commercial foundation in China. This model isn't much different than 1930-40's America before we became mostly a service/information tech based society.

 

[Narz]

I'd improve China by populating it with thousands upon thousands of little Narz's (through the traditonal method of course, not cloning or anything) These tall half-breeds would rise to power and create a new dynasty that would change China forever!

You asked

- Narz

 

[Xiahou-Dun]

Originally posted by feistymongol



True, but that's why there needs to be a GOOD vocational system too. Realistically, not everyone is suited towards higher education. In some ways I think this is where the U.S. system might be flawed. American colleges will accept practically anyone into our thousands of colleges/universities as long as you have the money to pay for tuition. Honestly, aptitude tests and grades don't mean anything unless you are trying very hard to get into an ivy league school like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.. Vocational programs in the U.S. are generally looked down upon or not taken seriously. I think this is a _BIG_ mistake since you can have a very respectable well paying occupation as a mechanic or some other skilled 'low tech' job that you learn in vocational school. This can be a very good option for people that don't have the money, aptitude, or interest in college.

I'm not saying that people who want to go to school shouldn't have the right to but there should be really good alternatives.

From my experience, (Being I build transmissions..) most vocational schools are jokes in the US. Not all, but the majority are IMHO and it might not be fair to the good ones, but this is the reason they are looked down on.

Where I work, a person coming out of vocational school will have a harder time getting hired. Once someone has been sent to one of the'bad' ones, it takes time and money to correct the learning. Most would rather start with someone who didn't know jack...instead of someone who thinks since they attended a school for it, they know it all.

The same can be said for Paint and Body as well. (My first job of ten years)

The thing I would have against a free college would be, everyone would want the chance...even if they didn't deserve it.( Not studing...not getting good grades.cutting class) As you said the US will accept anyone as long as they pay...but paying doesn't mean they will pass. I look at it as weeding out the ones who don't deserve to be there....while helping pay for the college at the same time.

The not well off (me at the time) ....I went on a Pell grant and working part time. I consider my self lucky. Most need other type of grants that cause a burden on the person once they pass.

If I had to decide..I would look at where the country is going..(More service or more industry) and base a free grant to the % needed for service. Say like 30% will be needed out of the school class of 2004. Take the top 35% and give them a free grant to college. (This would need to be based on the family income as well)

As to a grant to vocational school...my opinion is too basied. Maybe a "good" system would work and deserve grants..Most in the US don't though.

 

[ranskaldan]

Nice ideas here, but observations:

1) If anyone has noticed, China isn't communist anymore except in name.

2) North Korea won't drop communism, since it hasn't yet and I can't think of anything that would possibly make it (except massive civil war, probably).

3) Most of these things are being done already by the Chinese govt, except obviously the closer-ties to US part and the giving up Taiwan part.

4) But for that matter, the Chinese population won't agree to closer ties to the US or giving up Taiwan either.

5) So the conclusion is: how are these suggestions that different from real life?

 

[amadeus]

First, shake up the whole political spectrum. Kick out the Communist Party, establish a democratic process. A bicameral legislature, a judicial system, and an executive branch, much like the United States.

Second, allow religious freedom. Grant amnesty to anyone that was jailed as political prisoners.

Third, reorganize all social services. Partially privatize some services to streamline processes and decrease government dependency. Make some services part of local governments, i.e., don't have Beijing running the schools.

Fourth, establish local govenrments and allow them certain rights.

Fifth, break diplomatic ties with North Korea and isolate them. China's the only lifeline for the DPRK that's left.

 

[Jimcat]

Amazingly enough, I think that rmsharpe has pretty much the right idea.

I am not Chinese and don't have any knowledge of China outside of what I read -- and I'll admit that my reading on the subject has been less than thorough. So I won't pretend to know what specific reforms would work best for the Chinese.

But more political, social, and religious freedom seems like the best way to start. Given that, the Chinese people can work it out for themselves.

 

[ZultanofZex]

And why should "we" change China at all?

 

[newfangle]

AhhhhH!!!!!!!!!!!! Communism is NOT A BAD THING!!!!!!!!!!!

Estabolishing a democracy sounds great on paper, but the only reason to do it would be too apease that Bush character.

A country of 1.3 billion people that work relatively cheaply as it is, will not benefit from oppressive factory owners resulting from a democracy. There are human rights issues, but those can be resolved without a change in government.

The workers rose up, and they won.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by newfangle
AhhhhH!!!!!!!!!!!! Communism is NOT A BAD THING!!!!!!!!!!!

Estabolishing a democracy sounds great on paper, but the only reason to do it would be too apease that Bush character.

A country of 1.3 billion people that work relatively cheaply as it is, will not benefit from oppressive factory owners resulting from a democracy. There are human rights issues, but those can be resolved without a change in government.

The workers rose up, and they won.

...

...Killed millions, jumped into wars to export an ideology that people didn't want, conquered other nations, and finally have been replaced with authoritarians who actually have a clue how to improve the economy of their nation.

Hey, where are the communists out there to tell newfangle that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive? They've told us capitalists often enough.

 

[newfangle]

Takin things literally as usually I see. Of course there is much room for improvement in China, but they country itself will benefit much more with a communist approach.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
So the conclusion is: how are these suggestions that different from real life?

Uhmm... I believe the main point being echoed by people here is the will for a democratic state to exist.
I don't care about the specifics after that. However, China is far from a democracy, therefor, it would be nice if something changed.

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
And why should "we" change China at all?

China is not a democracy. Democracies are more stable, and safer to the international community (the Democratic peace). Therefore, it is in my best interest to see China become a democracy.
However, I won't lift a finger to do it. That is up to the Chinese that survive the purges and political imprisonment.

Originally posted by newfangle
AhhhhH!!!!!!!!!!!! Communism is NOT A BAD THING!!!!!!!!!!!

Not if you're part of the Communist inner-circle.
I suppose if you have views that are different from Communism you can just sit around and wait for the thought police to throw you in jail and take your property though. Too bad, 'eh?

Originally posted by newfangle
Estabolishing a democracy sounds great on paper, but the only reason to do it would be too apease that Bush character.

I don't know what I find more disturbing: Bush as a defender of Democracy or the idea that democracy only sounds good on paper and there isn't an intrinsic and altruistic value imbedded with the spread of Democracy.

Originally posted by newfangle
A country of 1.3 billion people that work relatively cheaply as it is, will not benefit from oppressive factory owners resulting from a democracy.

The working conditions in China are amongst the worst in the world.
Part of the reason is that labor cannot organize in the workers paradise, because that is what the Communist party is therefore, and the Communist party is more interested in the money it makes off oppressing workers than actually representing their interests.
There is no balance of opinion or politics. Its authoritarian governments that subjugate people, not democracy or economic systems.

Originally posted by newfangle
The workers rose up, and they won.

Well, the ones that survived the purges, political imprisonment, 're-education', and mass starvations won.

 

[amadeus]

newfangle, why don't the British go back to having the monarch rule the country? We don't the Russians replace the head of state with a new Czar? How about giving absolute power to Akihito? How about another Third Reich?

These systems have all failed in the past, but why are people reluctant to not accept the fact that Communism has FAILED?

 

[Xiahou-Dun]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
These systems have all failed in the past, but why are people reluctant to not accept the fact that Communism has FAILED?

If you had a dream of paradise, would you like for someone to tell you it's a dream?

 

[amadeus]

If a paradise is a cheap apartment, an eighty hour work week, and no hope of advancing, I'd want someone to tell me it's a dream.

 

[Toasty]

Of course, rmsharpe types from his multi-hundred-thousand-dollar home, infront of his gloriously advanced piece of electronic equipment, in a well-developed suburb of Minnesota.

Exactly like where you're working for pennies a day while being whipped and oppressed, making some other guy rich because his father was high man on the totem pole.

Yeah, I'm sure you can compare to the second guy, sharpe :roll:.

 

[Baleog]

Communism is too advanced for mankind at the moment. That's why it hasn't worked. Don't say it's evil just yet. Give it a 1000 years or so (minimum).

Disclaimer: 1,000 years is a guess. Don't give out to me too much if in 1,000 years it still doesn't work.

EDIT: But also I think the Chinese government can be so powerfu,l that if they go completly democratic (should they, in the Western ideal sense) they wouldn't have foreign factory owners under paying their staff.

 

[Baleog]

Firstly: if you offer free third level education not everyone takes it up. I kid you not. Enough people decide they are fed up with schooling so as to drop out and take up other jobs.

"China is not a democracy. Democracies are more stable, and safer to the international community (the Democratic peace). Therefore, it is in my best interest to see China become a democracy."

This may be nit picking, and I'm not knocking the democratic process, but..

Democracies are less stable especially to the international community. Especially if you have different government taking up power every 4/5 years with different values .... and discussions have to restart with another nation because of a changed stance.

They are deemed stable in the West because we assume once the democratic process begins in a country it will continue, there'll be no revolutions, military seizures ...