How would you change history?

So; the whole reason that the German plan failed was that it was out of date? They thought that their army could move to attack Russia faster than anyone else - sounds to me like a throwback to the days when Prussia was the mightiest country on the continent by a mile. Is that really how they ran things - having a preset plan which they threw in?
 
So; the whole reason that the German plan failed was that it was out of date?
That is called a strawman. What passed for the von Schlieffen plan also failed because of totally unrealistic logistical expectations, and because it was a politically and diplomatically disastrous move.
Flying Pig said:
They thought that their army could move to attack Russia faster than anyone else - sounds to me like a throwback to the days when Prussia was the mightiest country on the continent by a mile.
That was not the primary flaw in the plan. In the event, it didn't even come up.
Flying Pig said:
Is that really how they ran things - having a preset plan which they threw in?
Everybody ran that way.
 
Why was that, then? Sorry, I ask a lot of questions
Because it's easier to get a lot of men, weapons, ammunition, and so forth moving in reasonable coordination if you write everything down first and tell all the people who'll be needing to move somewhere. The French tried to do it without a plan in 1870 and things didn't end too well for them.
 
Because it's easier to get a lot of men, weapons, ammunition, and so forth moving in reasonable coordination if you write everything down first and tell all the people who'll be needing to move somewhere. The French tried to do it without a plan in 1870 and things didn't end too well for them.

Understatement of the year :lol:
 
Oh please - France was looking for any excuse to go to war and retake Alsace-Lorraine and get payback for Sedan, Russia was all too happy to rattle sabres whenever the question of panslavism was raised, Britain wanted to take Germany down before it could build a large enough navy to threaten its naval superiority etcetera etcetera. Telling me that Germany was the only country with unhealthy levels of jingoistic nationalism is clearly not supportable.

I wouldn't have said that France was looking for an excuse to go to war, exactly. Sure, once the war started, everyone was certain they'd be in Berlin in a week, and it was a motivator to action, but if they were looking for any opportunity, why did they take the numerous ones that came up in the years preceding the war?

As for the Russians, as you point out, it was not nationalism, but pan-nationalism. They didn't want to go to war because they were Russian, and they didn't really want to go to war at all, IIRC, but felt forced into full mobilisation by AH's flagrant breach of Serbian sovereignty.

And the British wanting a powerful navy was not the result of jingoism. It was the result of the simple fact that Britain could not be attacked without crossing the channel. Naval superiority was the key to Britain's defence, and whilst it may've been an object of nationalist pride, it was not designed for that reason.

As for AH, perhaps it didn't even have anything to do with nationalism, so much as wanting to keep their empire preserved.

But Germany, you could argue, was more militaristic, and therefore more willing to go to war. They wanted their 'place in the sun'. They thought they were superior and so deserved this. Maybe it wasn't an immediate cause of the war, but it could be put down as one of the root causes.

It also firmly believed that Germany deserved much better than what the system was offering to it. You know, more colonies, bigger navy, it's own place under the sun etc. :) Germany was simply not satisfied with its position - and I can understand why.

Wow, I hadn't even read this when I wrote that last paragraph.

This thought that they didn't have what they 'deserved' is nationalism. They 'deserved' it because they were better.

Balance of power doesn't mean that the relative power of certain actors doesn't change. When one country gets too powerful, other countries form alliances against it.

In that case, it is obvious that the balance of powers could not be preserved. Nations changed in power, and were changing in power. But I would say that the balance of power is the name given to the attempt to create a situation of opposing, yet equal, blocs. And in this attempt, countries varied in power, leaving it as just an attempt, and not a completed goal.

The problem is that countries are not entirely rational actors and they don't always have all the information to make a good decision - sometimes they believe that the enemies are weak when they are not, underestimate them and thus start a devastating wars.

Every nation thought that the war would be over by Christmas. So, every nation held this false belief of clear superiority. And, due to this, whether the balance of powers was actually balanced or not, a war would have started soon after 1914 when one power saw another catching up to it. They would take their advantageous opportunity whilst they could.

Germany did not initiate a world war. Germany believed the Austro-Serbian war could be localized. It was a combination of their own blunders and of France's policy that turned the war into a global one. If anything, the diplomatic balance was uniquely against Germany in 1914, a constellation that France knew was unlikely to get any more aligned in the French government's favor. Things were very likely to get better for Germany in the long run, not worse.

There is a quote somewhere by someone, I think, von Moltke, that said that it was the time to strike, because Germany would just get weaker. And before you ask, I don't have it on me. So, I have no evidence, but I quote I can't quite place.
 
There is a quote somewhere by someone, I think, von Moltke, that said that it was the time to strike, because Germany would just get weaker. And before you ask, I don't have it on me. So, I have no evidence, but I quote I can't quite place.
The personal views of the military hierarchy were not the same as the government's, and certainly did not dictate von Bethmann-Hollweg's, the kaiser's, or von Kiderlen-Wächter's policy in July 1914. So even if a quote were to exist, it would prove nothing, and be dwarfed by the evidence that Germany was not planning to use this instance to launch a world war.
 
The personal views of the military hierarchy were not the same as the government's, and certainly did not dictate von Bethmann-Hollweg's, the kaiser's, or von Kiderlen-Wächter's policy in July 1914. So even if a quote were to exist, it would prove nothing, and be dwarfed by the evidence that Germany was not planning to use this instance to launch a world war.

But the German military was quite keen on a war, and thought it would be for the best. I think the quote was von Moltke telling Wilhelm that, yes, Germany could be successful in war, and the plan should be implemented immediately. So, it may not have been the reason why the government wanted the Schlieffen Plan activated, but it was a motivation behind it, and a justification of the action.

But, I can't prove anything because I don't have the quote. :wallbash:
 
But the German military was quite keen on a war, and thought it would be for the best. I think the quote was von Moltke telling Wilhelm that, yes, Germany could be successful in war, and the plan should be implemented immediately. So, it may not have been the reason why the government wanted the Schlieffen Plan activated, but it was a motivation behind it, and a justification of the action.
So what are you trying to prove here? :confused:
 
Shoot Abraham. 3 religions less, less wars.

Oh? And what wars, pray tell, would be prevented when you have fifty different religions in Europe instead of three or four?
 
That I would be kind of right if I had the quote? :D
Not that I'm being very successful at that, either.
I think you are overrating the import of a single quote compared to what the German government actually did, namely attempt to order a partial mobilization (against Russia) before being informed that that was "impossible". The anatomy of the July Crisis also does not appear to be one in which the Germans were the masterminds of a war into which they stampeded the world with the merest pretext of a casus belli, especially on the German side. An aggressive, planned war requires a certain amount of self-confidence and nerve. Reading the missives of the German diplomatic corps, of von Bethmann-Hollweg and of the kaiser, one does not see this sense of self-confidence and nerve. The kaiser in particular casts blame on Russia, on France, on Britain, on the deceased Edward VII, but nowhere does he trumpet the rightness of his cause. His letters and communications are those of a man too small to resist what he thinks is coming, who thinks he is being driven by events. By contrast, someone who did plan an aggressive war acted rather different. Here's Hitler on the eve of World War II:
Adolf Hitler said:
When starting and waging a war it is not right that matters but victory...Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally. Eighty million people must obtain what is their right. Their existence must be made secure.
And, finally, a word on the von Schlieffen plan. This plan is predicated on the rapid strike against France, then on a turn against Russia; these directives would clearly make sense in the sense of the Moroccan crisis of 1905 and 1906, when Russia really was ruined and unable to bring to bear the kind of military power it eventually managed in 1914. Later on, of course, it became less practical. But in any event, the plan, if it to be credited with any sort of impact on the German plan for war, ought to at least have evinced in the German leadership a desire to actually do just that - strike quickly at France, then at Russia. But during the July crisis, localization remained a central theme and principal concern of the German government. They tried to keep Russia out of the war, they tried to keep France out, and when they were informed by Russia and France that it was no dice, that localization was impossible, the kaiser et al made a few, final, feeble attempts to draw back from the brink. And then Russia made her final decision, and refused to stop mobilization despite German entreaties; von Bethmann-Hollweg said (since quotes are all the rage?), "es sei die Direktion verloren" - the situation is out of their control.
 
I guess cultural barbarism (blowing up Buddhist statues, burning Indian Art, 9/11) etc would be rather unlikely without "my god is the only one and I will kill every infidel" ideas. Polytheists usually didn't tend to misuse religion for slaughtering others in a way monotheists still do.

Besides, I'd rather drink mead under a tree than ... you know. ;)

I also guess science could have made some rather large steps without the chains of religion.
 
Prolong FDR's life by a few days, long enough that Szilard (assumedly) gets his wish. Nuclear demonstration before a world audience: Japan still surrenders: ~220,000 less casualties.
 
I guess cultural barbarism (blowing up Buddhist statues, burning Indian Art, 9/11) etc would be rather unlikely without "my god is the only one and I will kill every infidel" ideas. Polytheists usually didn't tend to misuse religion for slaughtering others in a way monotheists still do.

Besides, I'd rather drink mead under a tree than ... you know. ;)

I also guess science could have made some rather large steps without the chains of religion.

:lol: true maybe. ....but I think monotheism was an inevitable evolution of religion, just like philosophy. I mean I guess there are people in the world who still worship dozens of gods, but I can't see it, we have trouble believing in one anymore.

Oh well, see you in Valhalla.
 
I just covered this elsewhere but they were part of a lifetime of experiences. let me repost a few.

plus there's a lot of lives that died prematurely, artists etc. that I would have tried to save: JFK, John Lennon, advise Elvis, before his music got derailed.


Inter-glacial period c. 200,000 years ago, Leave some artifact like a black monolith to confound future anthropologists, and give rise to theories that we were visited by aliens.

In the wake of the last Ice Age lead a tribe to the site of Byzantium and plant the seeds of a future dynasty.

A Mesopotamian mariner in the time of Gilgamesh or Sargon. There would probably be no better time to make an early play for complete world domination. At least 5 of the world's 6 cradles of civilization (other than the new world) were within easy reach.

NEW Warn the Minoans about Santorini.

Classical Greece - 500 - 420 BCE, I probably would have argued with philosophers and tried to broker a peace between Athens and Sparta in the Peloponnesian War.

Accompanying Alexander the Great as a scientific advisor - try to prolong or save his life and convince him the earth was round.

Accompanying Hannibal - the odds of surviving would not be so good, but I would have probably tried to help him conquer Rome.

Palestine at the time of Christ - to see the man behind the myth, and try to prevent the horrors of the Jewish revolt.

The barbarian migrations from about 400-480 AD. Who knows, maybe even meet the future King Arthur, and play Merlin.

The court of Justinian of the Byzantine Empire - Maybe I would accompany Belisarius as his aide de camp and try to make his life a little easier.

Accompany the Vikings on raids or trade missions from the Ukraine and Constantinople to the New World and teach the natives stuff.

The Crusades - 1095-1175, and 1185-1265. In general, keep them out of trouble. Prevent the worst atrocities. Gather the scattered parties of reinforcements that followed the First Crusade and the 2nd Crusade, before attempting to cross Anatolia instead of being massacred piecemeal. In the latter period, assassinate Guy de Lusignan and support Balian of Ibelin in a Peace Treaty with Saladin. Failing that, join King Richard. But especially, save Constantinople from the 4th crusade by convincing them to continue to Acre, and join Baybars against the Mongols of Hulagu Khan.

being the first to make contact with the Incas after walking across South America, and changing the course of history would be worthwhile if given the chance.

play God and roll the dice by assassinating someone like Bismarck or Lenin to see how things turn out.

Start a campaign of public outrage at the British involvement in the Boer War. In addition to being morally reprehensible, it might lead to a different scenario than WWI.

NEW Smuggle the Russian Czar and royal family out. Just to add some more variables to the equation.

NEW Rastenberg 1944. Make sure the assassination attempt goes off without a hitch. Saves a lot of needless bloodshed and history may stay substantially the same.


Or an early baby boomer who comes of age in the late 50s, and write a controversial book or two that would warn the world to avoid some of the pitfalls and crises we face today, assuming anyone would listen to you. I might be still alive to enjoy it too !
 
In the wake of the last Ice Age lead a tribe to the site of Byzantium and plant the seeds of a future dynasty.
Good luck getting a city there of any size before aqueducts and large-scale grain shipments. :p
vogtmurr said:
tried to broker a peace between Athens and Sparta in the Peloponnesian War.
They tried that, it didn't pan out.
vogtmurr said:
Rastenberg 1944. Make sure the assassination attempt goes off without a hitch. Saves a lot of needless bloodshed and history may stay substantially the same.
Why so late in the game?
 
Good luck getting a city there of any size before aqueducts and large-scale grain shipments. :p

OK - fresh water access would limit it's size for awhile. I'm just talking about a post ice age settlement. The satellite settlements would provide the grain and produce, and there's fish.:p It's a beginning.

They tried that, it didn't pan out.

They failed. Since we're creating this scenario, we can assume history is changed. An influential outsider might have more tack, but I would try anyway. The Spartans were ready for peace, it was just those stubborn Athenians, but I was thinking of a more lasting accord.


Why so late in the game?

Because it should have happened - and its less disruptive to the time space continuum, a similar result without some of the mess. I 'm just foiling the other time travellers who foiled it.
 
They failed. Since we're creating this scenario, we can assume history is changed. An influential outsider might have more tack, but I would try anyway. The Spartans were ready for peace, it was just those stubborn Athenians, but I was thinking of a more lasting accord.

Easy:

take 3 nukes with you, 50 kt range. Detonate one near Sparta, one near Athens and then approach both sides claiming to be a representative of the Gods. Tell them that the Gods are very angry at them because of this war and that if they continue, the Gods will destroy them.

I guess they'd never go to war with each other again :lol:
 
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