1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

HUI Game #2 - Boudica

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shafi, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,988
    Location:
    Toronto
    I guess that's part of the helping to improve. Knowing how to micromanage the start to steal an extra couple turns of early production.

    Otherwise, I'm always less of a fan of chariot rushes as a good old-fashioned axe rush, but having 2 opponents ~10 tiles away from you, neither of them protective, and both of them wonderspammers? If you're lucky, one will build stonehenge, one will build the great wall, and you'll have 3 good caps early on to beat down Shaka later with, especially a very strong GP farm in Thebes.
     
  2. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,231
    Location:
    Paname
    :lol: indeed, he prolly has avoided a nice :whipped: My back is still hurting :lol:
     
  3. huerfanista

    huerfanista Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,276
    I'd much rather do a chariot rush, especially with horses in the BFC, than an axe rush with copper in the BFC. The earlier the better with rushes, and chariots will be ready quicker than axes and will get to the target quicker (WAY quicker) than axes, and will attack the city quicker (resulting in fewer - if any - whipped defenders).
     
  4. JammerUno

    JammerUno Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    850
    Location:
    Utrecht, Netherlands
    Monarch games with epic speed rushes don't require alot of haste. In this case the distance between capitals is small; axes will work just fine. Chariots also require more techs, hunting/agri + wheel + AH against mining + BW. Although you probably need agri or AH anyway for food.

    Personally, I feel axes beat chariots when the travaltime isn't particularly long, and I usually don't rush AI when they're far enough away. With AGG leaders, where you have access to the counterpromos like shock and cover with a barracks, I favour axes even more.

    Besides:

    Axes will only take 2 turns extra to get to Hatty.

    Spoiler :
     
  5. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    Firstly, @Raskolnikov: thank you very much.

    Secondly, there is one point on which I agree with Soirana at least, that this will be my last post on this issue. Let’s move on with the game shall we? :) Now that’s sorted, let’s see if I can’t clear up this issue (re: worker first) once and for all.

    To that end, please find attached below a savegame which clearly shows the lost worker turns that result from building a worker first. For the record, the tech path was AH, mining, BW (to within 10 turns.) I’ve also worked the oasis instead of the pigs to help minimise the wasted worker turns. (NB: I agree with you @dirtyparrot re: working the pigs, I just don’t want someone coming back saying the wasted worker turns could be fewer if I worked the oasis.) BTW, anyone can view the file since I simply fortified the scout after settling to ensure none of the unknown areas of the map are revealed. The most important things to notice are that the year is 3100 BC, and BW is still 10 turns away. During this time, our worker can do nothing since we don’t even start with agriculture to farm the wine.

    Now, turning to your game @dirtyparrot in which you produced a worker first – and don’t worry, I won’t disclose anything unknown to Shafi, so feel free to read on everyone. :) Firstly, I note from the events log that you did not tech BW until 2625BC – far later than in my save. This is because you teched TW (rather than mining - BW) immediately after AH, presumably to connect the horses. Despite the fact you tech BW much later than my save, you assert that there were no wasted worker turns. How can this be?

    The answer is in fact devilishly simple: you occupied your worker during these extra turns from 3100BC (when I get BW) to 2625BC (when you get it) by (i) pasturing the horses (ii) roading them (iii) building a road that stretches right across your BFC and (iv) moving around the BFC onto the mine and forested squares. Make no mistake, you had free worker turns, it’s just that your worker was not idle during them because it pastured the (unknown at 4000 BC) horses and built numerous roads during that time.

    Now, let’s be clear: I’m not criticising your strategy at all. By building a worker first, you gambled on there being horses 1S, it paid off and the very best of luck to you. :) However, if that square 1S of the capital had contained anything other than horses, what then? At best, it might have contained copper but, lacking BW, you’d then have been confined to spending all the time teching BW by deploying your worker to build yet more roads (and teching BW’s 268 beakers at a maximum 13 BPT means they’d have had time to build a few). Whilst this may have helped speed up a rush by perhaps roading toward the neighbours, let’s not forget that roading outside the BFC without protecting your worker is not without its risks. Protecting your worker with a scout meanwhile (if the worker roads outside the BFC) still puts your worker’s ability to later chop forests at the mercy of the RNG and stops exploration. Moreover, at 4000 BC (when the decision had to be made), Shafi didn’t even know where the neighbours were (or indeed if there were any), so where were any roads to be built to? Of course, a priori at 4000 BC, we didn’t even know if 1S contained copper...what if it had contained iron for the UU, oil or some other resource?

    As mentioned, it is this very uncertainty that perfectly illustrate the point: when commencing the warrior build in 4000 BC, Shafi did not know that horses were in the BFC. Ex-post their discovery, worker first was, in retrospect, likely the best choice – and the best of luck to anyone who pursued that approach. However, as mentioned in my previous post, decisions are made ex-ante, before the map is revealed. In the absence of going into WB before making the decision, Shafi therefore faced certain knowledge that worker first meant alot of worker downtime as I’ve shown. The only cases in which this could be greatly lessened were (i) if horses were in the BFC or (ii) a decision had been made at 4000 BC to commit to teching TW immediately after AH so the worker could build roads, although we had no way of knowing in 4000 BC the direction in which they should be built. Now, sadly for Shafi, horses did in fact appear. However, given that Shafi, like the rest of us, did not have a crystal ball and know that horses were in the BFC, retrospective criticism of the decision of the sort I’ve seen in this thread is out of line in my view.

    Right, talking of horses, I’m going to get off my high one right now :lol::lol::lol:...is there any chance we can see how the game unfolds now please? I'm looking forward to seeing how two civs cope with Shafi's mighty chariots.:D
     

    Attached Files:

  6. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,841
    Celts start with hunting and mysticism, so there are really only 2 techs needed and it's slightly cheaper as well (although BW will be nice too). The main thing that's attractive to a chariot rush is that you have everything that you need in the BFC of the capital. You can always chop that impeding and cut yourself another turn when you tech BW. Plus it would make the return trip towards Capac capital much quicker.

    @learner: I didn't build roads outside the BFC. If horses wouldn't pop up, I would have build some roads (eventually mines) on where Copper has likely to be (while teching Mining/BW). Failing that, I would have just expanded (which you would have been better off for with working the pigs sooner and something necessary in either case). But, not to get back on this, you haven't explained why building a warrior is better than an worker even if you don't get horses or copper. What are you going to do with that extra warrior? Sure I took a risk that there would a strategic resource in the BFC, but I would have been better off if there weren't any.
     
  7. Artichoker

    Artichoker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,711
    Great post...I've also started to play using Boudica as the leader (hint, hint, for those following my series).

    And yes, the Celts start with very bad starting techs, when it comes to maximizing worker turns. This I've learned after only 1-2 days of playing. You really have to see the available resources that you have, and decide both your tech path and city build based on those.
     
  8. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,226
    Ha, I'm not the only one who didn't connect the ALC rules to no spoiler. The problem is ALC is rarely updated these days and is one of many series, so saying ALC rules != no spoilers in the minds of people who don't remember.
     
  9. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,226
    I'd dump the overflow into a second worker. Building the second worker outright would be preferable if you had bronze working faster, although I'm not sure if that's viable.

    And worker downtime is ok if it means working that 6 yield tile earlier.
     
  10. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Sri Lanka
    Learner gamer - has done a great job of summarising why i went warrior first, i think we had a short discussion on that before the start, anyways i think i too have to agree that even in this case worker frst would have still been better. So yeah, lesson learnt ;).

    @ Soirana -QUite honestly, during the course of this game and probably the series of HUI games i will definitely be making lots of mistakes that may seem silly, stupid, or moronic, but hey i am not that great of a player and if it really bugs you so much well then yes you should'nt look in these threads. YOur criticsm is welcome, but please dont act as if i do it on purpose, what am i supposed to do not play civ becuse i'm not as good as you guys?

    Sorry to be off topic, but you know your comments did really get under my skin, i made a mistake, yes, appreciate you pointing it out, some of the things you have said in addition to that, not so much.

    Anyways, i will get back to this game in the evening which is about 12 hours away, i may post it tonight if i can or tomorrow for sure.
     
  11. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Sri Lanka
    Back on topic - ;)

    My thoughts on research after wheel is Pottery > Writing > and then IW?
    Does this sound ok?
     
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,988
    Location:
    Toronto
    If you're rushing multiple people, costs add up. I'd seriously consider going up the alphabet/currency/CoL line before going towards Iron working. Especially once you dump your 2 neighbours, you probably won't be able to trade very well with Shaka.
     
  13. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Sri Lanka
    So how about - Pottery > Writing > Math > Currency > CoL ?

    Math is cheaper than Alpha & chopping bonus, though i don't know if i will be chopping much at that time but with the amount of forest around the egyptian capital it may be useful. Since we plan on rushing two of our neighbours not too many trade partners would be around, unless this turns out to be a Panagea i dont expect anyone other than Shaka to be around.

    Any reason you suggested Alpha? Is it a good idea to go Math instead?
     
  14. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Sri Lanka
    Slight error above, when i started playing the next round i realised, writing was available straight up so i took it, and pottery requires either agri or fishing, i think agri is more useful so thinking of going Agri > Pottery. Anyways in short,

    I am now researching Writing, my thought on next few techs,

    Agri > Pottery > Math > Currency > CoL ...
     
  15. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,988
    Location:
    Toronto
    No real reason I suggested alphabet. It all depends on how much you're crashing, if you need to be able to build research to get by, or if you can wait until you get currency.

    Also, I always forget that math leads to currency (makes sense, doesn't it). Although since you're probably going to be able to finish off fairly quickly and not end up taking way too many cities, you should be able to survive until Currency/CoL without running into too much trouble.
     
  16. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,231
    Location:
    Paname
    math also leads to construction... alpha don't ;)
     
  17. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    IMHO, UWHabs has it spot on...it’s either maths or alpha in your tech order depending on whether you need to build research to help with the post war recovery. Of the two I’d favour maths if you can get it since (a) you’ve no idea if Shaka will be a decent trade partner (although you can argue this the other way, in case he’s teching well) and (b) it’s a step closer to construction (as RRRaskolnikov notes) and calendar, the latter of which you’ll need to work your silk...and Thebes’ bananas :mischief: (=> room for science and merchant specialists there if needed).

    BTW, was the reason you teched writing before pottery (thus missing the pre-req reseacrh discount) so you could get a quicker OB and scout both Ram and HC?

    edit: pottery via agri is right too IMHO.
     
  18. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,226
    AI tend to tech mathematics and iron working. If you both tech mathematics, you just get mathematics, if you tech alphabet you can get all 3.
     
  19. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,231
    Location:
    Paname
    He will quickly kill two of his neighbours and be left with Shaka. The value of alphabet is far less in this case. Math would open concrete goods... He is far from running out of things to build so building research isn't needed to save the economy either. I agree that if he mets 2 more AIs in the next few turns, the plan needs to be revised. Anyway, after writing, he should be acumulating gold waiting for his first library to be up... that lets time to adjust.
     
  20. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Sri Lanka
    Actually sometimes i can be a real idiot, it was only after i had been researching writing for a bit that i realised i did'nt have pottery (since it was not on the list of things i could research - obviosly since agri was not reearched yet!), at that point i decided to get writing done so that i could have OB to scout out the enemy lands. I think it worked out well in te end.

    BTW - Played the next round until 380 BC or something. Will complete the write up and post the update in the next few hours, i think i can manage that while i'm at work :mischief:.

    Yeah, it was not aposition you could fail from, Horses in the capital BFC, two close neighbours ;). However i did make a very stupid mistake, one that i knowingly did, that set me back around 10 - 15 turns i would think. I am so annoyed with myself about that :wallbash:.

    Anyways, i dont think there's going to be too much of an issue wrapping up this game.
     

Share This Page