I am afraid. I am very afraid.

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Rik Meleet

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Just over 15 years ago, the DDR -or East Germany- ceased to exist. For those of you who are too young: the DDR was a Communist country under the sphere of influence of the USSR. It's secret police (that all authoritarian states seem to have), the Stasi was a very effective one. For instance, they managed to place a spy in West German chancellor Willy Brandt's office.

Some things the Stasi did were laughed at. For instance; of every typewriter in the country a typed sheet of paper was kept. The thought was that every typewriter was slightly different and in this way anti-communstic ("free") propaganda could be linked to a specific typewriter so anti-communistic activists could be arrested and imprisoned -or worse-.

Then why am I so afraid ??

Well: What would have been an authoritarian state's dream is todays reality. It is widely known that the NSA listens to phonecalls of virtually anybody on the planet. Very worrying.
Even more worrying is that every photo you take with a digital camera gets an identifying mark of a unique camera and already longer than 10 years printers mark papers that can link every sheet of paper back to the printer it was printed on.

In my country there are camera's on every highway, registering -and keeping- all car-traffic. Even worse; soon I can't buy a public transport ticket that is not registered to my name via a creditcard, or personalised buspass. All that information is stored, meaning I cannot go anywhere outside bike-distance without a governmental institution knowing where I am.

Do you really think this is only to catch child-porn creators? Do you really think this is to catch counterfeiters? Do you really think this is to fight terrorism?

Do you really think a state that wants to control its citizens and does not tolerate anti-government voices to be heard demands HP to only sell printers in their country that always makes prints identifyable ?? Dissidents are easily caught with this.

This technology is not fiction. This technology exists. This technology is being used. This is technology that can so easily be used to control the citizens of a nation. This technology is East-Germany's dream - only 15 years after Communism fell, the West is under more surveilance than the East-Germans were.
You can trust your government to not do it, sure, but when you do, think of this: This technology will not go away. In order to not share my fears, you will have to trust the government for 50 years. For 100 years. For ever. I don't trust my goverment that they will not use an existing powerful technology in this way.
 
Do bear in mind that it didn't work for the DDR in the end...

Anyway: What do you propose to do about it? The technology exists. It can't be un-invented.

EDIT: I agree that this is scary stuff, and I do not trust any government very far with it. I just don't see how anything can be done about it.
 
(I remember the DDR - and BDR (?) - we had to learn all of the old names in our German II class. Then the Soviet Union fell...)

It is widely known that the NSA listens to phonecalls of virtually anybody on the planet.

They must have very tired ears, then. :p

Actually, I think it's been shown that it's only the phone records, not the exact conversation. Even then, it might be searching for key individuals.
 
Atropos said:
Anyway: What do you propose to do about it? The technology exists. It can't be un-invented.

TO ZEE TIME MACHINE!

Seriously though, I'm not sure what to make of it. On one hand the march of technology is inevitable. On the other, I think that the continued diminishment (is that a word?) of privacy is due to have effects on people. I think those effects may be more psychological than political.
 
Rik Meleet said:
Just over 15 years ago, the DDR -or East Germany- ceased to exist. For those of you who are too young: the DDR was a Communist country under the sphere of influence of the USSR. It's secret police (that all authoritarian states seem to have), the Stasi was a very effective one. For instance, they managed to place a spy in West German chancellor Willy Brandt's office.

Some things the Stasi did were laughed at. For instance; of every typewriter in the country a typed sheet of paper was kept. The thought was that every typewriter was slightly different and in this way anti-communstic ("free") propaganda could be linked to a specific typewriter so anti-communistic activists could be arrested and imprisoned -or worse-.

Then why am I so afraid ??

Well: What would have been an authoritarian state's dream is todays reality. It is widely known that the NSA listens to phonecalls of virtually anybody on the planet. Very worrying.
Even more worrying is that every photo you take with a digital camera gets an identifying mark of a unique camera and already longer than 10 years printers mark papers that can link every sheet of paper back to the printer it was printed on.

In my country there are camera's on every highway, registering -and keeping- all car-traffic. Even worse; soon I can't buy a public transport ticket that is not registered to my name via a creditcard, or personalised buspass. All that information is stored, meaning I cannot go anywhere outside bike-distance without a governmental institution knowing where I am.

Do you really think this is only to catch child-porn creators? Do you really think this is to catch counterfeiters? Do you really think this is to fight terrorism?

Do you really think a state that wants to control its citizens and does not tolerate anti-government voices to be heard demands HP to only sell printers in their country that always makes prints identifyable ?? Dissidents are easily caught with this.

This technology is not fiction. This technology exists. This technology is being used. This is technology that can so easily be used to control the citizens of a nation. This technology is East-Germany's dream - only 15 years after Communism fell, the West is under more surveilance than the East-Germans were.
You can trust your government to not do it, sure, but when you do, think of this: This technology will not go away. In order to not share my fears, you will have to trust the government for 50 years. For 100 years. For ever. I don't trust my goverment that they will not use an existing powerful technology in this way.

How can they keep track of all this information? How could they go through it and find the real culprits out of all the ordinary information?

Doesnt sound feasable to me. Even if its true which it probably is its just a waste of government spending.
 
.Shane. said:
TO ZEE TIME MACHINE!

Seriously though, I'm not sure what to make of it. On one hand the march of technology is inevitable. On the other, I think that the continued diminishment (is that a word?) of privacy is due to have effects on people. I think those effects may be more psychological than political.
Has the history of the last few hundred years really diminished privacy? It's a popular view, I know, but I'm not sure it's accurate.

The government can now trace back all records to the original printer - scary stuff. But, as Rik said, it could already do that with typewriters.

Look at it the other way around: In the West, just about everyone can afford to buy a printer and circulate 100 copies of a dissident manifesto. In contrast, 300 years ago in England (not known for its police state tendencies), only a handful of printing presses existed for the entire country. And all required royal licenses.
 
I dont know if the title is an exageration or if he really is afraid.

I dont think we are going to turn into a fascist state despite this. And i dont commit any crimes so im not worried. Sure they arent supposed to be looking at all my information but i have nothing to lose anyway.

I think your making too big of a deal out of this. The end of the world isnt going to happen over this. :lol:
 
Atropos said:
Has the history of the last few hundred years really diminished privacy? It's a popular view, I know, but I'm not sure it's accurate.

No, I think its very recent as is the acceleration of technology.

One thing I failed to mention, is that I think the US (and any democracy) should have a new Bill of Rights for the information age.

I'd include the following:
*No company can buy or sell personal info w/out your permission. Being that personal information is an extension of the self in a digital age.
*Credit reports must be available for free on an annual basis
*Health and insurance decisions cannot be based on genetic profiling.

Just for starters....
 
Whaddya mean turn into a fascist police state?

UK is already there. Has been since the 80s.

EDIT: Pointless creating new laws. Security Services are immune to prosecution, ie they can break laws at will and have been doing so for nearly a century. Probably longer if you consider Crown based intel services (ie not state security).

All they got to do is paint "National Security" on ANY issue and that's it. No invesitagation, no questions, no press reports, nothing... except websites based beyond their control (even then, they can block direct access).
 
CruddyLeper said:
Whaddya mean turn into a fascist police state?

UK is already there. Has been since the 80s.

EDIT: Pointless creating new laws. Security Services are immune to prosecution, ie they can break laws at will and have been doing so for decades.

Well not fascist compared to fascist states of the past...

And isnt that what we are basing it on?

I cant compare the U.S or the U.K to nazi germany just for this data mining crap.
 
Chieftess said:
(I remember the DDR - and BDR (?) - we had to learn all of the old names in our German II class. Then the Soviet Union fell...)
BRD. This is still our official name "BundesRepublik Deutschland" (Federal Republic of Germany)

Chieftess said:
Actually, I think it's been shown that it's only the phone records, not the exact conversation. Even then, it might be searching for key individuals.
Same for the EU-bill some people worry about, here on the other side of the pond.

Xanikk999 said:
I dont think we are going to turn into a fascist state despite this. And i dont commit any crimes so im not worried. Sure they arent supposed to be looking at all my information but i have nothing to lose anyway.
In general I agree with you, but I am a little worried about the methods which may follow. As long as they just collect numbers to recognize friends of a convicted criminal, it is okay imo. But no analysis of phonecalls...
 
I think there are two ways to look at this.

If our elected governments are in control of these spying agencies that's one thing, but if the agencies are out of control that's another.

Now, which is it? :nuke:
 
Xanikk999 said:
Well not fascist compared to fascist states of the past...

And isnt that what we are basing it on?

I cant compare the U.S or the U.K to nazi germany just for this data mining crap.

Spooks are spooks and not to be trusted under ANY circumstances.

They're not serving "the people", just certain vested interests.

Suggest you study Nicolo Machiavelli, "The Prince". Old world but still relevant discussion of power - how to get it and how to keep it.
 
It makes you wonder. Several months ago the US government said they weren't tracking phone calls. Now we learn they are. Now though, they say they don't listen in. Will we learn a few months from now that they are?

All of this has to stop NOW, before it gets to far. No government should be allowed to spy on it's citizens, end of story. If they can hide this kind of stuff for so long, what else are they hiding?
 
.Shane. said:
*Credit reports must be available for free on an annual basis

Already here. You are allowed one free report from each credit bureau every 12 months. If you are ever denied credit because of a report from one of these agencies, you are entitled to a free report as well. You can get them online if you don't want to wait for them to mail it to you.

As far as the rest of this, the comparison falls a bit short. I mean, yes, the US gov't can do a lot of pretty nutty things when it comes to tracking us. But unless you are breaking major laws, you really have nothing to worry about. And you still have rights if they do decide to arrest you. That wasn't the case in the DDR.
 
shadow2k said:
As far as the rest of this, the comparison falls a bit short. I mean, yes, the US gov't can do a lot of pretty nutty things when it comes to tracking us. But unless you are breaking major laws, you really have nothing to worry about. And you still have rights if they do decide to arrest you. That wasn't the case in the DDR.

Yeah, the comparison might be a little harsh, but it's still too far for the government to go.
 
Good thread Rik.

Just one of the problems with all the data mining.................it's too easily hacked.

Just recently, Shell petrol stations in the UK announced that their brand new chip and pin systems had been defrauded to a nice, fat, six figure pounds sterling number. Didn't take long eh? People have been ripping off passports, copying credit cards, stealing identities all they like too. I had my ID stolen two years ago and my bank account cleaned out within a week (which admittedly wasn't hard to do) and it didn't take much of my documentation to achieve it. Moreover, all these new measures made my life hell trying to prove who I actually was again.

These extra measures being proposed atm with things like ID cards are simply making the fraudster's job easier (and anyone else's spooks for that matter). Instead of getting all the details from a number of sources, they just get it from one spook central. Or Interpol.

Answer to all this: "Let's freak out some more and do a bit more data mining." Honestly, it's nuts. The technology may be there, but it doesn't mean we need to use it for these purposes.

As for the old style Soviet secret service....well it was always the Soviet intelligence agencies that led the way.
CruddyLeper said:
Whaddya mean turn into a fascist police state?

UK is already there. Has been since the 80s.

EDIT: Pointless creating new laws. Security Services are immune to prosecution, ie they can break laws at will and have been doing so for nearly a century. Probably longer if you consider Crown based intel services (ie not state security).

All they got to do is paint "National Security" on ANY issue and that's it. No invesitagation, no questions, no press reports, nothing... except websites based beyond their control (even then, they can block direct access).
Quoted for massive truthery.

The Criminal Justice Bill under the last Tory govt was yet one more nail in a heavily studded coffin. I wonder if anyone else has been struck by the ease with which the Labour govt simply outlawed the potential (2nd) fuel protest by hauliers over here. They simply said to them, if you protest we'll take away your license. There was even a large degree of public condemnation that they had managed to whip up about it also. Quite contrary to the previous fuel protest.

It was sheer apathy, just like there has been around the repeated bouts of job cuts around the UK's car industry of late. Sure the reasons are there for the cuts, but compare that with the miner's strikes in the 80s when the reasons were also there, and when you had all those extra police powers being introduced. There's a stark difference.

Add onto that the fact that the new public music and gathering laws in the UK are rendering perfectly innocent and popular events illegal. Amongst these are the BBC's Top of the Pops no less, which is left wondering whether it is suddenly a criminal enterprise or not.........!
 
Rik Meleet said:
Well: What would have been an authoritarian state's dream is todays reality. It is widely known that the NSA listens to phonecalls of virtually anybody on the planet. Very worrying.
Even more worrying is that every photo you take with a digital camera gets an identifying mark of a unique camera and already longer than 10 years printers mark papers that can link every sheet of paper back to the printer it was printed on.
Well, the comment about the digital cameras is noted.

Do you have anything to support the other allegations? The links posted don't really support the statements made.
 
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