I am afraid. I am very afraid.

[Rik Meleet]

Question: why would a government want to control it's citizens? Particularly in democracies where the leadership could be voted out every few years. I'll be worried when they start to suspend elections.

That question seems interesting and important, but unforunately it isn't. By creating an industry standard in phones, printers, camera's etc. that registers invisibly and "forever" you are creating a standard that is abusable. And it isn't widely known that your prints, photo's, posts on the internet, the pages you go to on the internet, where your car is, is being recorded and stored.
What is important here is that we are accepting to be on a path that makes humans traceable without their consent. The argument "I've got nothing to hide, so it's ok" is simply invalid. First of all, you don't know what someone wants to know, so you don't know what you are hiding. Second of all, ever wondered where all the SPAM comes from? How do they know you like dogs, flowers, sudoku's, Civilization, Viagra etc? Sending you SPAM is innocent compared to what can be done by comparing stored information.

Here is an example. I've posted this picture of my 2 nephews, after my brother-in-law took it with a digital camera. A cookie for the person who knows what brand and type of Camera my brother-in-law has.

A "solution" of this is to have printers, camera's, mobile phones and other types of communcation devices that do NOT store, mark, send the information to a central storage facility. Databases that do not store information forever, but max a few hours. Non-personalised credit cards, freedom to buy a trainticket with cash. Search engines that do NOT store individual surf-behaviour by default and store it forever. No matter how often Google says "do no evil", as long as they store the searchstrings one looks for it is in danger of being forced to "do evil".

I, as a CFC - moderator can easily see the IP-addresses you are posting from. I can find (roughly) where you are and who your internet provider is. If I am in law-enforcement; I can get your sign-up information (incuding your billing address) from your provider. So, with just a little effort from law-enforcement; your posts are traceable to you. Post something Anti-American -> Pro-Americans know where you live and who you are. Post something Anti-Iranian -> Pro-Iranians know where you live and who you are. Post something Anto-Chinese -> Pro-Chinese know where you live and who you are.
I know in 2006 in most circumstances it will not be noticed, ignored or be disregarded. Since the data is stored the question that matters is: Do you know if your post will not be noticed, ignored or be disregarded in 2046 ??

 

[Xenocrates]

I agree Rick.

As someone said already, once you have stored information that can be easily edited there is a greater risk of abuses. After 'Chip and Pin' came in fraud has increased. In the old days you needed to snatch a lot of handbags and forge a lot of signatures to make the money. Now, if you have the access, it's easy.

Too much information is too much power and too much temptation.

In the UK recently several people were misidentified as criminals and refused jobs as teachers. So there are also accidents that you'll need to worry about. Sure you're not doing anything ilegal but what about the guy whose records will get mixed up with yours? What about that guy you annoyed in junior school that now has a job in security? We frequently hear of CCTV operators using cameras for spying on their enemies and for sexual reasons.

How can you have blind faith that these unelected, unaccountable men and women will not abuse their power? How can you control them?

Some of the posters here believe that the government are the people that you elect. Some think that the elected part of the government are flies on a elephant's backside.

 

[plarq]

How did you know when the Stasi placed a listening device in your home? When you came and you found a new cabinet.

We brought this on ourselves, you know. We've installed government after government lined with statists, claiming to have the "best interests of the people" at heart.

You allowed the government to stick their hand first in your pocket, and it shouldn't be any surprise to you that they've found a few other places to stick their hands in too.

So you oppose their surveilance?

 

[IglooDame]

I'm afraid too. Of the NSA domestic call record collection, what oversight has there been?

Let's see, the NSA apparently refused to get FISA approval for it, Justice Department investigators were denied security clearances by the NSA to see whether their own employees acted ethically with regards to the program, and meanwhile that same Justice Department is moving to dismiss a federal lawsuit brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation accusing AT&T of colluding with the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program.

Oh, no problem, some congresspeople were briefed on the program. Meanwhile, Rep. William Jefferson has his office searched by the FBI, Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert objects on separation-of-power grounds, and then ABC News reports that the FBI may be investigating Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert in its corruption investigation (that has already gotten Rep. Randy Cunningham, by the way).

The only participation of the judiciary so far seems to be the FISA court, which at best is a rubber stamp and at worst is being bypassed. The legislative branch members, unlike Xanik and Cheesy, almost certainly DO have something to hide (unless you assume they're honest politicians?) and the NSA call records that they approved suddenly might show up in bribery indictments with their names on them. USA-PATRIOT and PATRIOT II laws used on members of Congress? Why not, they're used on organized crime. NSA call records used on members of Congress? Why not, they're used on reporters associated with the CIA leak investigation. And besides, Justice Department lawyers (as yet, the only lawyers who appear to agree with Bush/Gonzalez) have decided Congress granted Bush broad wartime powers when it authorized the use of force in Iraq.

Yeah, Rik, I'm afraid too.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Here is an example. I've posted this picture of my 2 nephews, after my brother-in-law took it with a digital camera. A cookie for the person who knows what brand and type of Camera my brother-in-law has.

My hex editor says: SONY DSC-W30
It also says that the picture was taken on the 24th at 19:00:35 camera time. (7 PM)

Am I correct?

I'm not so much worried as annoyed. BTW, Rik, when you say you can see my IP address, do you mean the one I signed up with or the one I'm posting from?

 

[MobBoss]

I am not worried and I think that people who DO worry over such things at this point largely paranoid.

@igloo. I happen to agree with Jeffersons office search. The man is the next Duke Cunningham. Senator priviledge should only extend so far.

 

[Brian_B]

I know in 2006 in most circumstances it will not be noticed, ignored or be disregarded. Since the data is stored the question that matters is: Do you know if your post will not be noticed, ignored or be disregarded in 2046 ??

I'm just trying to see how such information could be used against me. I guess some stuff could be damaging if you were running for office but if you are talking about in a more private context... will I be rounded up as some conspirator or enemy of the state? I would say other things would have to happen to a government independent of the technology/information storage phenomena so while it can be abused it doesn't mean it necessarily will be abused.

 

[Brian_B]

How can you have blind faith that these unelected, unaccountable men and women will not abuse their power? How can you control them?

Some of the posters here believe that the government are the people that you elect. Some think that the elected part of the government are flies on a elephant's backside.

Oh I'm not so naive as to think there are no long-tenured people lodged in administrative agencies and other executive departments. However, people who are on the top are generally going to be over 50 making it hard to orchestrate any prolonged conspiracy unless they have young succesors who are "in on the act." Additionally, although there are non political high ranking executive officers, the highest ranking policy makers are, indeed, appointed by the president and leave office with the president.

 

[Brian_B]

And besides, Justice Department lawyers (as yet, the only lawyers who appear to agree with Bush/Gonzalez) have decided Congress granted Bush broad wartime powers when it authorized the use of force in Iraq.

They did, I actually researched that legislation and the problems with delegation of War Powers authority when I was in law school a few years ago. Congress really screwed up on that one. Now I guess they are trying to get the poop back into the dog.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Please don't compare the German Democratic Republic to what's going on in America today. It's just insulting to Germans.

 

[Xenocrates]

Recently in the UK we have had Dr Reid admitting that he's not in control of the home office. This is very unusual and I can't remember another example.

My main point is that the people at the top must maintain the illusion that they are in control. Otherwise their reputation and ego will take a hit. in any company the boss must maintain this illusion, but when trust goes, the boss can't do it because the staff cease to be employees and start to act in self interest primarilly.

As a boss, any boss, how can you fully supervise your staff? This is one of the things that we take for granted, but when you think about it, there's not really much you can do. When authority is lost (as it would be if your employes are spies and therefore know your secrets) it just gets more difficult. It's doubtful that the spies have any more respect for their bosses than we do, and probably somewhat less.

 

[Rambuchan]

As a boss, any boss, how can you fully supervise your staff? This is one of the things that we take for granted, but when you think about it, there's not really much you can do.

You delegate to supervisors, get plenty of feedback sessions set up, you put in place systems that check and balance your organisation's conduct. It's perfectly possible. Although the Home Office is a particularly sprawling entity to manage.

When authority is lost (as it would be if your employes are spies and therefore know your secrets) it just gets more difficult. It's doubtful that the spies have any more respect for their bosses than we do, and probably somewhat less.

Spies, by the very nature of the process through which they get into the service, are more unquestioning of their masters than perhaps most professions out there. Don't let the few high profile whistle blowers convince you otherwise. Spies have their background so damn thoroughly checked out before entry into the service it's ridiculous. Any self respecting person would have to seriously respect a system and authority to let it scrutinise their life to so much detail before hiring them.

 

[Xenocrates]

Nice post ram; it made my think.

I don't doubt that there are some employees that are williingly subservient to their organisation. But there must also be people that join up seeking the money, the 'buzz' and the power. In the private sector people rip off their employers all the time and as the chip and pin fraud demostrates, are simply using their employment to further their own ends. I know of plenty of examples of companies being broken from within.

I'm only suggesting that the same happens in the spy agencies. Liberals may worry out the planned misuse of this data, but everyone should be worried about mistakes and abuse.

 

[Rambuchan]

I don't doubt that there are some employees that are williingly subservient to their organisation. But there must also be people that join up seeking the money, the 'buzz' and the power.

If there are those people, they are sadly misinformed about, and most probably disappointed with, the spook profession. It's neither well paid nor does it allow a position of power wielding (as I noted above). These people are Servants of the Crown, Civil Servants of sorts. They do not get paid that much for the aptitudes these people possess. Many could get much higher paying jobs. Why do they do it then? The buzz and the desire to serve the crown.

It's the crown itself you should be worried about, the spooks are just the pawns.

In the private sector people rip off their employers all the time and as the chip and pin fraud demostrates, are simply using their employment to further their own ends. I know of plenty of examples of companies being broken from within.

The Shell company example I gave is not one of these afaik. That case of fraud was from without, not within. Look to the Post Office's recent fraudster for that kind of thing.

I'm only suggesting that the same happens in the spy agencies. Liberals may worry out the planned misuse of this data, but everyone should be worried about mistakes and abuse.

Sure, mistakes and abuses happen, but it's the systematic abuse that worries the most really.

For example, there is an agreement in place between I think the US, UK and Australia (perhaps others too), which means that all your data is immediately shared between all three nations' intelligence agencies (can't remember the name and can't be bothered to search for a link). I don't remember ever being asked if I was ok with that. That's an abuse in itself I reckon.

 

[Rik Meleet]

My hex editor says: SONY DSC-W30
It also says that the picture was taken on the 24th at 19:00:35 camera time. (7 PM)

Am I correct?

Spot on - cookie for you.

I'm not so much worried as annoyed. BTW, Rik, when you say you can see my IP address, do you mean the one I signed up with or the one I'm posting from?

All.
For instance; your post made yesterday afternoon was not on the same PC as the post I am quoting.

---

I've forgotten tp post the 3rd reasion why the "I've got nothing to hide, so it's ok" is invalid, so I'll do that here.
The ones that do have something to hide, will make sure they are hiding it in such a way that it's either not detectable or when discovered unusable. The ones that do have something to hide will not really be bothered by these methods. The ones that think they have got nothing to hide will not hide it and will get victimised.
For those of you that have nothing to hide: please post your credit card number and the expiry date of the card.

 

[Atropos]

Please don't compare the German Democratic Republic to what's going on in America today. It's just insulting to Germans.

Uh... do you really believe that the DDR was democratic?

And do you really believe that US elections are less free than the one-candidate "elections" in the DDR?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

All.
For instance; your post made yesterday afternoon was not on the same PC as the post I am quoting.

Wrong. Now I suppose it'll look like this post and the following ones are also from different IP addresses. Most of the time my laptop switches between school and home connections, but now I'm using a circumventor program. Is it working? Kindly tell me if the following posts have other IP sources.

 

[carlosMM]

Please don't compare the German Democratic Republic to what's going on in America today. It's just insulting to Germans.

Pasi, are you that naive or are you playing 's advocate here?

The Soviet Union was never a communist state, nor was the DDR 'democratic'. Don#t judge the book by the cover!



My wife told a fun story of the Gorbachev visit to Berlin: she and her parents watched the visit by switching from channel to channel - east TV, west TV, east TV, west TV.... on east German TV, the masses shouted party paroles, on west TV, same pictures of the same rally, they shouted 'Gorbi, set us free!' and stuff like that

 

[Erik Mesoy]

They did, I actually researched that legislation and the problems with delegation of War Powers authority when I was in law school a few years ago. Congress really screwed up on that one. Now I guess they are trying to get the poop back into the dog.

And the Justice Department lawyers, what baout them? Shouldn't they have found that power-granting to violate something or other?

(not really arguing here, just testing if Rik will see a new IP...)

 

[JerichoHill]

Uhhh, we dont really deal with that at Justice...