I Have A Question About The Dialectic of History According to Marxists

I see, capitalism adapts but its still capitalism
Communism adapts so it isn't communism anymore
Down to its core, yes. I’m not using this as a bludgeon against the theoretical implementation of communism, but by definition it cannot be reformed.

The capitalist economy rests on the private ownership of capital; having a social welfare system or imposing regulations on working hours doesn’t change that.

Communism, in its theorized form, is the abolition of both private property and the state; according to the Marxists, there would be no market relations so even any attempt at private industry would be a fantasy, an unnecessary and impossible undertaking.

I personally don’t think it is possible to ever reach that stage.
 
Down to its core, yes. I’m not using this as a bludgeon against the theoretical implementation of communism, but by definition it cannot be reformed.

The capitalist economy rests on the private ownership of capital; having a social welfare system or imposing regulations on working hours doesn’t change that.

Communism, in its theorized form, is the abolition of both private property and the state; according to the Marxists, there would be no market relations so even any attempt at private industry would be a fantasy, an unnecessary and impossible undertaking.

I personally don’t think it is possible to ever reach that stage.

Except it has been many times.
Marxists have always differed on how their dreams would come about.
I'm not a Marxist and I'm not convinced its practical either but you're oversimplifying it.
 
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is the stupidest slogan I have ever heard
 
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is the stupidest slogan I have ever heard
Oh there are way worse ones than that— check out The Abolition of Work; the author argues that jobs can be abolished. How will anything get done? People do stuff because they won’t sit idle. How about the jobs people tend not to want? Well, then we don’t need those things at all!

Marxists have always differed on how their dreams would come about.
Do you mean how they plan to get there or what where is? I don’t see a lot of room for compromise when a system says no money, no property, no exchange.
 
Oh there are way worse ones than that— check out The Abolition of Work; the author argues that jobs can be abolished. How will anything get done? People do stuff because they won’t sit idle. How about the jobs people tend not to want? Well, then we don’t need those things at all!


Do you mean how they plan to get there or what where is? I don’t see a lot of room for compromise when a system says no money, no property, no exchange.

How they plan to get there mostly.
Where they envisage being is a post-scarcity society, see Star Trek or the Culture in the Ian M. Banks novels for examples.
My main problem with them is like capitalists they tend to envisage limitless production, the thing that has led to the environmental crisis we are facing.
 
Oh there are way worse ones than that— check out The Abolition of Work; the author argues that jobs can be abolished. How will anything get done? People do stuff because they won’t sit idle. How about the jobs people tend not to want? Well, then we don’t need those things at all!


Do you mean how they plan to get there or what where is? I don’t see a lot of room for compromise when a system says no money, no property, no exchange.
no doubt, I was just making a comment about stupid slogans. the entire premise, including dialectic materialism and conflict theory are totally wack.
Seems pretty good description of the ultimate goal of technological progress and social development.
abilities and needs are entirely too individually subjective to be determined by the whole of society.
 
abilities and needs are entirely too individually subjective to be determined by the whole of society.
The slogan doesn't imply abilities and needs will be determined by society.
They can be partially dependent on culture and upbringing, but will remain individual.
 
How they plan to get there mostly.
Where they envisage being is a post-scarcity society, see Star Trek or the Culture in the Ian M. Banks novels for examples.
My main problem with them is like capitalists they tend to envisage limitless production, the thing that has led to the environmental crisis we are facing.

Star Trek isn't post-scarcity. But Culture literally relies on benign magical overlords.

I often say that my economic theory has an endgoal of "holodecks and replicators" for all. But we need a lot of progress to get there
 
My main thing with communism is eating.

Who is voluntarily going to bust a gut growing food door others without some sort of reward mechanism?

Working on a farm is very rough so there's that to consider. With an increasing population.

I'm sure waving a magic wand and believing will solve that. Haven't met a communist yet who is a farmer or aspires to be one.
 
My main thing with communism is eating.

Who is voluntarily going to bust a gut growing food door others without some sort of reward mechanism?

Working on a farm is very rough so there's that to consider. With an increasing population.

I'm sure waving a magic wand and believing will solve that. Haven't met a communist yet who is a farmer or aspires to be one.
The Chinese Communists came from rural areas back in the day.
Mao first tried a communist movement with factory workers but they were too few in number and were crushed. Afterwards he focused on rural areas and farmers.
 
The tradition has so much more to it than Marx even though he's foundational, obviously. He must be if you buy in to historical materialism and it is tautological why this is the case: no one can write a meaningful critique of capital until at least one generation of humans have come of age in what resembles a capitalist society.

However the basic contradictions between organizing a society and allowing for the accumulation of vast amounts of wealth and power go all the way back to ancient Greece. Aristotle himself noted that economic inequality was incompatible with democracy. Whenever some rightwing media pundit starts blathering on about western values or the western intellectual tradition I always end up wanting to throw up in my mouth a little because they ALL make it quite clear within minutes that they have no clue what they are talking about.

No one takes this stuff that religiously anywhere in the world at this point. No nation can, because the US and the Eurozone have a stranglehold on the global economy. Talking about it in that fashion totally misrepresents what's left of the socialist experiment which really does amount to handful of state-capitalist nation states that attempt to set floors on social welfare and aggressively pursue growth for themselves regardless of what the planners in Washington, London, and Brussels might want. The idea that this is voluntary is Orwellian doublespeak because the only alternative is crushing poverty. You will also live under constant threat of coup, military invasion, etc. Please note that, to a man, all capitalism apologists must either deny the crimes of empire or rationalize them.

The dialectical stuff is a picayune philosophical tangent and one does not need to understand it, or even necessarily buy into it, because it's of no practical importance. A common sense explanation of historical materialism and class warfare can be understood by almost anyone. Whether or not they will hear you out or not is another matter. Your enemies control the culture, education, all the media, the tech companies. Gramsci laid out why this was important.

To attempt to answer OP's question Marx's stateless society was seen as "the end of history" because all material conflict was hypothesized to have been removed from society. The basic premise of historical materialism is that all of human politics, and thus human history, is driven by material conflicts of interest and how they are resolved.

I agree that's not happening and it's why the state isn't going anywhere. Anarchism is a childish fantasy which is peddled to direct the time, attention, and energy people are willing to give to politics into avenues which can't accomplish anything. People remained passionately sincere about this ideology in large numbers through the late 19th and early 20th century, so it's impact can't just be hand waived away, but these conceptions have no chance of taking power anywhere in the world that matters at this point. The difference between now and then is that modern day anarchists use their ideology as a excuse to sit out of the struggle to seize the power of the state whereas their forebears did not. This difference probably can be attributed to Marx becoming taboo in the west.

However I do agree with the conception that human politics are the resolution of material conflicts of interest. All the other bullfeathers is just window dressing to hide this fact from people. Religion, idpol, culture war, in the modern day are all instruments used to heard us into political coalitions which do not represent our material interests.

The only real question left, as I see it, is whether or not you want a worker's state or a bourgeoisie state.
 
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is the stupidest slogan I have ever heard

And why would anyone respect your opinion on this?
 
The Chinese Communists came from rural areas back in the day.
Mao first tried a communist movement with factory workers but they were too few in number and were crushed. Afterwards he focused on rural areas and farmers.

And look how that turned out for them. They starved.

Once they tried implementing communism anywhere feeding themselves was difficult as they sold communism on the theory once it was to late they had to feed the cities somehow.
 
The tradition has so much more to it than Marx even though he's foundational, obviously. He must be if you buy in to historical materialism and it is tautological why this is the case: no one can write a meaningful critique of capital until at least one generation of humans have come of age in what resembles a capitalist society.

However the basic contradictions between organizing a society and allowing for the accumulation of vast amounts of wealth and power go all the way back to ancient Greece. Aristotle himself noted that economic inequality was incompatible with democracy. Whenever some rightwing media pundit starts blathering on about western values or the western intellectual tradition I always end up wanting to throw up in my mouth a little because they ALL make it quite clear within minutes that they have no clue what they are talking about.

No one takes this stuff that religiously anywhere in the world at this point. No nation can, because the US and the Eurozone have a stranglehold on the global economy. Talking about it in that fashion totally misrepresents what's left of the socialist experiment which really does amount to handful of state-capitalist nation states that attempt to set floors on social welfare and aggressively pursue growth for themselves regardless of what the planners in Washington, London, and Brussels might want. The idea that this is voluntary is Orwellian doublespeak because the only alternative is crushing poverty. You will also live under constant threat of coup, military invasion, etc. Please note that, to a man, all capitalism apologists must either deny the crimes of empire or rationalize them.

The dialectical stuff is a picayune philosophical tangent and one does not need to understand it, or even necessarily buy into it, because it's of no practical importance. A common sense explanation of historical materialism and class warfare can be understood by almost anyone. Whether or not they will hear you out or not is another matter. Your enemies control the culture, education, all the media, the tech companies. Gramsci laid out why this was important.

To attempt to answer OP's question Marx's stateless society was seen as "the end of history" because all material conflict was hypothesized to have been removed from society. The basic premise of historical materialism is that all of human politics, and thus human history, is driven by material conflicts of interest and how they are resolved.

I agree that's not happening and it's why the state isn't going anywhere. Anarchism is a childish fantasy which is peddled to direct the time, attention, and energy people are willing to give to politics into avenues which can't accomplish anything. People remained passionately sincere about this ideology in large numbers through the late 19th and early 20th century, so it's impact can't just be hand waived away, but these conceptions have no chance of taking power anywhere in the world that matters at this point. The difference between now and then is that modern day anarchists use their ideology as a excuse to sit out of the struggle to seize the power of the state whereas their forebears did not. This difference probably can be attributed to Marx becoming taboo in the west.

However I do agree with the conception that human politics are the resolution of material conflicts of interest. All the other bullfeathers is just window dressing to hide this fact from people. Religion, idpol, culture war, in the modern day are all instruments used to heard us into political coalitions which do not represent our material interests.

The only real question left, as I see it, is whether or not you want a worker's state or a bourgeoisie state.

Empires predate capitalism. They exist across multiple cultures with different ways of organization.

So go forth and conquer is more a human thing than blaming capitalism. Capitalism may make imperialism more efficient due to technology and being able to fund said wars.
 
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

3. Call nothing your own, but let everything be yours in common. Food and clothing shall be distributed to each of you by your superior, not equally to all, for all do not enjoy equal health, but rather according to each one's need. For so you read in the Acts of the Apostles that "they had all things in common and distribution was made to each one according to each one's need" (4:32,35).

The Rule of St. Augustine, chapter 1, section 3.
 
However I do agree with the conception that human politics are the resolution of material conflicts of interest. All the other bullfeathers is just window dressing to hide this fact from people. Religion, idpol, culture war, in the modern day are all instruments used to heard us into political coalitions which do not represent our material interests.
As soon as a person's material needs are met, other fundamental needs arise and drive one's life. "A car in every garage and a chicken in every pot" is only the beginning. See Maslow

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=maslow's+...-content/uploads/2015/03/Maslow-hierarchy.jpg

Once the basic needs are met, the real challenges begin as one tackles the psychological and self-fulfillment needs of people. Look at Trump; he had everything he ever needed materially and what a mess he turned out to be. Government, no matter the type cannot solve the problem of people. Of course we can do better with the basics and that should be our goal.
 
Empires predate capitalism. They exist across multiple cultures with different ways of organization.

So go forth and conquer is more a human thing than blaming capitalism. Capitalism may make imperialism more efficient due to technology and being able to fund said wars.

again, not a marxist, and i'm not stinkubus either, but "go forth and conquer" became possible with what marxists consider the start of feudal societies, as before food surplus was a thing large scale conquest was a really impractical way of obtaining resources. mostly because large scales didn't really exist before agriculture. why would you conquer what amounts to wilderness when about 100 kcal of work gives you about 100 kcal of food. how can you enforce power when you can't feed an army (don't have dem farms yet). marxist historical criticism goes past capitalism towards earlier societies - infact marx was far, far preferring capitalism to feudal economies - it 'merely' felt capitalism was not a sufficient system to prevent suffering, and argued primarily against it because the feudal system wasn't really succeeding at that point. it's a waste of time to argue against something that's been defeated
 
Once the basic needs are met, the real challenges begin as one tackles the psychological and self-fulfillment needs of people.

Um, this is precisely older Marx's concern: To give people space to fulfill their higher needs without having to worry about the basics.

If you recall in Alpha Centauri, the workers faction's characteristic is labelled as "eudaimonic". I was always amazed at how appropriate it was. The person who wrote that must really know their stuff.
 
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