[BTS] I want to improve my early game with your advices

[Gumbolt]

You settled before asking for advice?
Mansa again? Are you a one trick pony? You don't learn games by playing best leader all the time.
Zero food resources for your capital. Reroll as this is really bad.

Your actally getting advice from some great players here. Learn to listen! These people are playing immortal/deity level.

Forges/markets are not great builds for most cities. Focus on granaries/libraries based on the cities strength. Granary is the best building for cities. Super powerful for growth.

Settling of cities should always be based on food resources.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

2.1. The build-up

After some scouting and building worker now we understand the world. It will get more complex:

Boudicca is around, her scout was coming from the west.

I marked the next potential building sites:

In former experience I had chosen site A, but knowing about the advantage of overlapping tiles I would think about B or C. C seems to be stronger because of the oasis, but is not on a plain-hill and not on the river. I tend to choose B, because I get the pig in 33 turns by borderexpanding of capital and I could need the quciker research and the bigger overlapping. What would you choose?

I researched bronze-working after agriculture. We need to get known where what is and want to begin to chop and whip. My warrior will go west now and tries to find boudicca. After bronze I would go straight into pottery to build cottages. I would take the easter floodplain as cottage and the western as farm.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Did you get Mansa Musa again randomly?

I took him because I want to change not so many parameters at once. I want to see different situations with the same traits before changing. So I will use Mansa the next games, until I beat my first monarch game. He will be a constant in this thread.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You made the worst possible decision with settling there, dodging all food

Mh... what had you choose? And why are my assumptions not correct?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You settled before asking for advice?
Mansa again? Are you a one trick pony? You don't lean games by playing best leader all the time.
Zero food resources for your capital. Reroll as this is really bad.

Your actally getting advice from some great players here. Learn to listen! These people are playing immortal/deity level.

Forges/markets are not great builds for most cities. Focus on granaries/libraries based on the cities strength. Granary is the best building for cities. Super powerful for growth.

Settling of cities should always be based on food resources.

I can restart again, when necessary to see the other ways, where it could go. So see it as a possible way to let me learn by mistakes, trial and error ;-)
You can argument and show me the mistakes, at best with some calculations.

And... I don't want to reroll. In a tournament I cannot reroll too. So let us assume, this is a map, I cannot change and try to make the best of it.

To forges: What do you think about Mansas mints? Are they better?

Where would had you settled here?

_________

To Mansa: I plan to keep him until I beat monarch. When this game is quite easy again (this time without using the standard rush), I want to play monarch level next. The idea is changing not too many parameters at once and learning, what works with him first before learning other things. I am sure, I am far away from understanding the use of financial or spiritual trait perfectly, or the use of early archer UUs.

The changed parameters here are:
- inland sea -> more barb management, fixed borders
- no huts and random events
- normal speed (which I play seldom)
- other map and other opponents

This enough for now to deepen the learnings of round 1.

 

[Fippy]

On dyes keeps wet rice (counts as good unlike dry rice). 2 more for the city tile.
Or on Epic where moving costs a bit less, an argument could be made for pigs + all floodplains. So this would be 1s of your current posi.
I didn't fully think this over, but settling past 2 good resis isn't what you should do. If you end up with none for your Cap.

 

[Gumbolt]

The idea of overlap is for cities to share food tiles. You have zero food tiles to share in your capital. I have never settled a capital with no food resources in last 10+ years. Capital should always have a 1-2 food resources in Big Fat Cross. (BFC). I don't consider flood plains as food resources. A/B/D/E have no food in inner ring. Really bad to settle. Don't agree with C.

Agree with Mylene (Fippy). 1S of your current city site would of been better. This then allows the wheat site. Which would get the gold when the capital border pops. This would of required AH to make pigs work.

Make no mistakes food resources in your capital BFC is critical for Civ 4. Same for new cities but in the inner ring. No food in inner ring will cripple any new city.

Reroll or start over 1S of current position as any further advice here is pointless as you have nerfed the start.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

OK, I restart. But I want to debate the settling position again, cause what Fippy said, is interesting:
Settling on the dye grants me +2

I would have 12 commerce instead of 10, and the initial best improvement will need lesser technology. Settling 2S of this forces me so sink far more before I can start with bronze. En plus I start 1 turn earlier and there could be other resources in the north, matching my existing techs (well, they are not there, but I don't know that).

When I take the argument, that snowballing little short-term advantages makes the game (like 1 turn earlier settling, 2 more and a more free choice of techs), why is the position 2S of Fippys proposal the better choice?

The only reason I could name is, that we know this area and don't wake up with jungle or such a ****.

Question aside: Can we see the base terrain of the neighboring tiles or is it just an optical illusion?

_______________

Here's the beginning save:

 

[AcaMetis]

Question aside: Can we see the base terrain of the neighboring tiles or is it just an optical illusion?

Fog gazing can allow you to guess what tiles are hidden within the darkness, but only to a point (a desert could actually be a flood plain, for example). Another aspect of that is checking for fresh water. A tile will always mention whether it has access to fresh water (adjacent to a river, oasis or lake) regardless of whether you can actually see the source of this fresh water, so that can be used to make educated guesses as to whether a water tile is coast/lake or whether a desert tile is actually an oasis tile.

 

[Anysense]

Wet rice is 1 better than farmed FP and takes fewer turns to improve + 2 extra commerce from settling dye + lots of river + forests make it a good location. You need a good reason to walk away from it. Swapping wet rice and 2 for a floodplain or two simply loses you 2 per turn (wet rice + grassland farm provide the same 6 surplus as two farmed floodplains) and you will need more workerturns to farm floodplains.

It is actually good have some fogged tiles in BFC. Any unexplored tile may contain food, gold etc. Better than tiles which you know to not have anything special on them. There is also a chance of getting some deserts or jungle but it is unimportant.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Are there existing desert river tiles, which are not floodplains? We know, there's no desert in the north, but could there be one? From the first look it is grassland, which means 21, a grassland-forest or jungle. Just jungle would be uncool.

Aside: Knowing the map already it could be good to settle the 2nd city south of the pig, isn't it? We could share a farmed floodplain while developing the pig. How would you improve the capital? What were your first tiles? The rice is clear, but what after? (we know, there's a second floodplain and a "wet" dye there, which has 3).

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Wet rice is 1 better than farmed FP and takes fewer turns to improve + 2 extra commerce from settling dye + lots of river + forests make it a good location. You need a good reason to walk away from it. Swapping wet rice and 2 for a floodplain or two simply loses you 2 per turn (wet rice + grassland farm provide the same 6 surplus as two farmed floodplains) and you will need more workerturns to farm floodplains.

Yeah, that was my wrong assumption. Good we restarted.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

So okay, we will settle on the dye.

___________________

What do we do?

Warrior:
Scouting around the city area (clockwise, cause we need to know, whether a city spot, which shares the wet rice, is possible)

Worker:
Will improve rice first and floodplain thenafter, both with farms

Research:
Agriculture -> Bronze working -> Pottery

City:
Worker -> Warrior -> Worker (or settler?)
This way we build next Worker/Settler at pop 3.

You share my thoughts?

 

[Gumbolt]

Worker, warriors to size 2, settler. Use chops for settler. That or grow to size 4 and 2 pop whip settler. You only have 1 decent food resource. How long to grow to size 4 with farm? 10-12 turn settler vs whipped settler with 1-2 chops?

Tech looks fine. Unless you want AH earlier. Think BW is more important.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

2.1. First land improvements

Round 21:

This is the known world: We see 3 dye, 1 gold, 1 gems, 1 pigs, 1 bananas and 1 copper. The rice is connected soon.
The map doesn't make the decision about where to settle easy.

Settling tiles:
A1, A2 are a good next choice. They could need an farm-upgraded floodplain to grow faster
A1 is at a river, i favorite that.
B1 is an idea for getting copper soon, but needs expansion for getting it.
C1 or C2 are spots for later. When I want to connect them directly I need to settle on bananas (C2), when I want a real food source I need o settle without connecting. Settling here brings gems and later spices, but needs ironworking.

_____________________

How to grow as fast as possible?

The city grows to 2. It grows faster than I can develop the land. This leads to timing think-ups:

Variant 1:
The worker is now at the forest west of city. He can chop that to get a second worker. Thenafter building up the farm on the floodplains and on the dye after that. The settler is created after the worker.

Variant 2a:
Like variant 1, but the worker is whipped, thenafter progress with building warriors until city reaches back size 2. The 2 workers will build floodplain.

Variant 2b:
Like variant 1, but the worker is whipped, thenafter progress with building warriors until city reaches back size 2. The 2 workers will prechop the forest tiles.

Variant 3:
We go for settler directly, first chop forest, then chop another one and maybe whip. The new city will be without warrior at first.

Variant 4:
We go for settler too, but only chop one forest, then buildup the floodplain (which will be needed by the second city directly, when I take A1). Maybe we whip.

____________________

I feel best with Variant 2. What do you think?
Really building settler first before we are capable to work the land?

Research: The game showed already, that I prepare for AH now. Our worker will need tat soon. Hunting, Fishing or Pottery could be debatable too. Fishing is a good solution, when cap rises on size 4, but cottaging seems better. Hunting is for archery and savon bulbs for AH.

What would you research?

____________________

Foreign relations:

Boudicca seen at the south, Gilga at the north. Both are no easy targets at first. Result: This game will be harder than a normal Prince game.

 

[AcaMetis]

Are there existing desert river tiles, which are not floodplains?

None that naturally generate on normal map scripts. If a city settles on a floodplain it will turn into a desert river tile (floodplains are tile features, like forests, which get removed when a city settles on it), but otherwise you won't see a regular riverside desert tile

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

Without commenting on build order, your city locations are much better this time. A1 and A2 are both fine, the one on the river probably preferred, as you noted. B1 is good too. C1 is OK, maybe 1W would be better -- you can maybe get the Spice later with the floodplains nearby, if Gilga doesn't get it first. C2 is not really an option, I don't think -- you usually don't want to settle on a 5F tile. You might need those Bananas to feed the Gems if there's no other food in the area.

 

[lymond]

MoI - Just a quick bit of advice after glancing at these posts. FOOD is King in this game. Never move away from it.

Assuming settling on dye, a city 1W of pigs would be good - given what we've seen.

edit: ah..missed some posts. A1 spot may be better just to get gold online faster, which is of great benefit early.

Other dye can be farmed or cottaged early. Personally, I prefer farming a tile like that.

Not sure you need another worker yet if I'm reading correctly. I recommend chopping forest your on into settler. Move to forest 1E of Tim and chop that into settler, then you can farm the dye. Continue growth on warrior.

 

[Gumbolt]

A1 looks pretty good. Grabs 3 flood plains. Gold and the pigs. B1 can always move 1W. Banana site is heavily restricted by jungle so can wait.

My usual start on immortal is worker, warriors, then double settler. Then new city can often help whip or build worker with a chop. If your whipping your capital early 2nd worker not super critical.

You really don't need city defenders early on. Learn to use warriors to fog bust

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

So, here we are at round 32:

I chose to do, what lymond said.

I settled A1 and let the worker farm the dye. This way the new city can use the floodplain and the old city can use the dye after growing to 2 again. After it has grown to 2, I build worker again, which I plan to whip, not to chop. The free worker will build the Pasture.

I decided for Pottery, for granary and cottages.
What would you do with the floodplains? Cottage 'em or farm 'em?

Thinking "growth is everything" would mean to farm is better, but a cottaged floodplain is very strong longterm and starts here with 3C. My guts are saying: "Cottage it".
What would you say?


Now, we have to answer 3 questions now:

1) When do we want to build the second settler? I would say, directly after the second worker and regrowth to pop2.
2) Where should we place the 3rd city? I would take B1 or 1N of it. In turn 50 this city could use the floodplain west of Djenne
3) What should the workers do in witch sequence? I would build the pasture next and after the next worker has finished, we have to see further.

One warrior is scouting the east now. If there's a better place, maybe with elephants or very food-rich, I would consider to settle there, defending with skirmishers.

Edit: It was eaten by a strong team of an bear and a lion. Rest in peace, my friend.

___________________________

Most of the next turns are straightforward, when we accept building the second worker is the best after regrowth: Now round 39.

We need to decide, what the worker and the worker #2 will do: I would say, cottage the floodplain, but it's possible to mine the gold too or to farm the floodplain. Maybe the worker could chop the forest NW of Djenne to make this process faster.

Additionally we need to decide, what Djenne will build. I would say, an worker. Timbuktu needs regrowing and thenafter should build a settler, right?

I chose Writing as next tech, so it would be possible to build lib too because of the massive commerce of 16 in cap (after regrowing). Only drawback: There's nothing really good to research with these crappy tiles. Best would be maybe hunting/archery and thenafter ironworking to get known more about the map. When I plan to take copper or to expand Djenne to the oasis, Mysticism can be a thought worth.

Cap will expand in 11 turns.