Ideas for Total War games after Empire.

[Keroro]

The trouble with a lot of the suggestions I see is that they are about a very limited number of factions. Trojan War - only two sides to that one. Alexander - practically speaking only one side in that. Mongol total war - again, there's only really one faction that would be really cool to play (INHO). Greece total war - well no-one would enjoy it more than me , but so many good Greek mods have been done off the RTW engine already that I hardly think it's worth it. WWII - OK, there were lots of factions involved, but total war games are generally about situations in history where everyone is in conflict with everyone else. Alliances are temporary, back stabbing constant. I can't see how total war would handle the coalition work that was essential to WWII.

American Civil War would be interesting, but I'm not sure that there are enough sides to play that would have an equal chance of winning - basically two? Doesn't make for a tremendously long-lasting gameplay experience. Given Empire's game engine I wouldn't be surprised if the Civil War was released as an expansion pack, though I believe the first expansion is meant to be Napoleanic in theme.

I'd love to see a China Total War based around the time after the fall of the Zhou. I understand it was a time when a number of states were in fairly well matched positions and any one could have emerged victorious. It ended with the Qin dynasty unifying the majority of what we now call China, and the TW team seem to like that kind of stuff (having covered the unification of Europe in RTW and the unification of Japan in STW). I'm not sure Creative Assembly would want to do China though since, as I understand it, the period didn't have much really consequential sea combat, and CA will surely want to use their newly made toys again.

I've suggested a really ancient TW game before. Fertile Crescent Total War, centering on Mesopotamia/Egypt. Factions such as the Sumerians, Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Mycenaeans, Minoans, perhaps Israelites etc. Admittedly they were not exact contemporaries, but they're probably close enough to come into the same game. I also think that the Trojan War could be encompassed towards the end of this era just before the Sea People usher in the dark age.

I guess that they would probably go back and update one of their old games though - now that they've brought in sea battles they would be able to add some substantial extra gameplay to RTW. Carthage could be a much touger nut to crack, and the Persians Wars between Greece and Persia would be much better simulated. Remember the Salamis!

Anyway, this post has turned out much longer than I thought it would. To bed now.

 

[Stormrage]

Remember the Salamis!

I remember those!




Also, remember the Alamo!

I don`t really see WW2 as a TW game, but WW1 might be doable. I don`t think there will be another TW game tho, perhaps a re-make of Rome and thats it, move on to new projects, its not like they`re Nintendo..

 

[Yui108]

Well, I'm still angry that they're going to basically skip the late 15th 16th and 17th centuries. MTW 2 treatment of the late game is just sad. I want to fight in the reformation god darnit!

 

[Yui108]

The collapse of Aegean civilization had nothing to do with the outcome of the war.

It was the Sea Peoples, right?

 

[Dachs]

It was the Sea Peoples, right?

Dorians, actually, who aren't really lumped together with the Sea Peoples. They were part of the same general civilization crash, though.

 

[Maniacal]

Well, I'm still angry that they're going to basically skip the late 15th 16th and 17th centuries. MTW 2 treatment of the late game is just sad. I want to fight in the reformation god darnit!

Agreed. It would have been nice to DISCOVER new lands and colonise them.

 

[salty mud]

I would LOVE to see a re-make of Rome. What with the improvements to the Total War engine made, and with some of the cool features introduced in later games, it could end up being the best of the Total War series. I still probably regard R:TW as the best in the series... it ate up HOURS and HOURS of my life.

 

[LightSpectra]

The trouble with a lot of the suggestions I see is that they are about a very limited number of factions. Trojan War - only two sides to that one.

Given, though I suppose if you consider artistic liberties, that also Israel and Egypt could hop into the fights.

Alexander - practically speaking only one side in that.

Egypt and Israel were client states of Persia, but they could offer their own, independent resistance. So even if they initially begin on Persia's side, you could break that alliance off if the player is one of those factions. Then there's also all of the less-organized tribes lying around. And, there were Greek cities that didn't join Macedonia, most notably Sparta. Finally, the scenario could also go into the civil war that happened after Alexander died.

Mongol total war - again, there's only really one faction that would be really cool to play (INHO).

I could turn this around and say that people only want to be Rome in Rome: Total War. China, eastern Europe, Japan and Arabia are also regions that battled against Mongolia, remember.

 

[guare]

yeah!

I just thought the word mameluke meant "camel cavalry" or something.

 

[salty mud]

'Mamluk' means owned. As in, they were soldiers who converted to Islam and served the Sultans.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mameluk

 

[Dachs]

Given, though I suppose if you consider artistic liberties, that also Israel and Egypt could hop into the fights.

You know, ridiculous stuff like Parthia controlling Susa and Media in 270 BC(E) was bad enough in RTW. Venturing further into the world of fantasy at gamestart is not more desirable, but less.

Then there's also all of the less-organized tribes lying around.

Alexander only really engaged the Saka out of all those anyway, in the confrontation during the Bactrian/Sogdianan revolt. And none of those tribes were particularly interested at that time in coming south, and in many cases were clients of the Persians. (The Saka, for example, sent a unit of what were probably the first cataphracts in classical warfare to fight at the Battle of Issus for Darius, and by all accounts performed remarkably.)

And, there were Greek cities that didn't join Macedonia, most notably Sparta.

This is a legit option, but do you really think that people will want to play as an impoverished, population-depleted state that hasn't been able to project power outside the Peloponnese in fifty years? Sparta was utterly smashed by Antipater when they had their war against the League of Corinth in Alexander's absence. I don't see player-controlled Sparta having any more of a chance than that, unless we want to abandon any shred of realism.

Finally, the scenario could also go into the civil war that happened after Alexander died.

They're already making a mod for RTW, Wars of the Diadochi, which covers this. And I would rather get the for-free mod than pay monies for a less realistic project from Creative Assembly.

I could turn this around and say that people only want to be Rome in Rome: Total War. China, eastern Europe, Japan and Arabia are also regions that battled against Mongolia, remember.

This is legit. I'd want to play as the Sung, myself. That empire was pretty friggin' awesome.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You know, ridiculous stuff like Parthia controlling Susa and Media in 270 BC(E) was bad enough in RTW. Venturing further into the world of fantasy at gamestart is not more desirable, but less.

Or the idea of a united Brittanic civilization. I rofled thoroughly that that.

Alexander only really engaged the Saka out of all those anyway, in the confrontation during the Bactrian/Sogdianan revolt.

I think they were Dahae Scythians that fought with Spitamenes.

They're already making a mod for RTW, Wars of the Diadochi, which covers this. And I would rather get the for-free mod than pay monies for a less realistic project from Creative Assembly.

I could turn this around and say that people only want to be Rome in Rome: Total War. China, eastern Europe, Japan and Arabia are also regions that battled against Mongolia, remember.

Vietnam was the other nation that successfully resisted the Mongols militarily. Such a game as Mongol:TW would have to be epically huge, but the awesomeness, if done correctly, would be similar in size.

 

[Traitorfish]

The trouble with a lot of the suggestions I see is that they are about a very limited number of factions. Trojan War - only two sides to that one.

I don't know about that- Troy: Total War exists as a mod to Rome, and contains several factions. Apart from the Trojans, there are multiple Mycenaean factions, as well as Dorians, Hittites and Minoans on the edge of the map. The Mycenean factions were all pretty similar, while lacking the diversity of unit types that allowed Shogun to work with a similarly limited unit roster.

 

[Maniacal]

I don't like playing Rome in RTW because I HATE how it is split into three.

 

[Keroro]

I just wrote a long reply to several posts, but them closed the window by mistake. Damn annoying. To summarise:

Stormrage -

Mongol total war - well, I guess it could work. It would need work on the game balance though. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice how stupidly over-powered horse archers are in RTW.

Alexander - the problem still seems to be that very few powers are in a realistic position to resist Alex at that time. Egypt was a rebellious satrap that welcomed Alex, Israel was really very irrelevant at this point, Sparta was powerless enough that Phillip and Alex never bothered going down there or trying to force them into the Corinthian League. The only significant powers that Alex could have faced were Persia, some of the Indian Kingdoms, and to an extent Bactria. Looking west, there's Carthage and the Celts.

There's also the short timescale to look at. Rome took centuries to gather all the land it eventually controlled, so it's realistic to start a game at the beginning of that period with a balanced game. Alex took around 15 years to acheive all he did. Any historically realistic game with Alex is going to need massively overpowered Macedonians if they are going to be able to expand at the historical rate - which is no good if you're playing any of the other powers. Just my 2 cents on that question. I consider Alex one of the most fascinating characters in history, but his history doesn't make for a good balanced game.

Diadochi Wars are interesting, and can be far better balanced, but there are so many good mods for RTW that I just don't see the need.

I don't know about that- Troy: Total War exists as a mod to Rome, and contains several factions. Apart from the Trojans, there are multiple Mycenaean factions, as well as Dorians, Hittites and Minoans on the edge of the map. The Mycenean factions were all pretty similar, while lacking the diversity of unit types that allowed Shogun to work with a similarly limited unit roster.

I admit I haven't tried that particular mod, I'll have to look it up. I'd rather have something on a grander scale personally though.

Dachs - You wouldn't happen to have a reference for the cataphracts at Issus would you? Could be useful for an ongoing project I have.

 

[Dachs]

Or the idea of a united Brittanic civilization. I rofled thoroughly that that.

Yeah, ha ha. It saddens me that the EB team elected to make the Casse into a faction, though I can kinda see the rationale from a playability point of view.

I think they were Dahae Scythians that fought with Spitamenes.

Dachs - You wouldn't happen to have a reference for the cataphracts at Issus would you? Could be useful for an ongoing project I have.

I got the battle wrong (it was Gaugamela), but according to Arrian (in his third book of the Anabasis of Alexander - by way of Tarn, in his The Greeks in Bactria and India), 1000 mailed horsemen were furnished by the 'Sacaraucae' to Darius III at the aforementioned engagement. In addition Alexander apparently made use of some Saka auxiliaries to boost his numbers before he crossed the Paropamisadae into India. (Same source, fifth book.)

And of course, the Issyk kurgan 'golden man' is invaluable for any discussion of early Saka cataphracts.

I don't like playing Rome in RTW because I HATE how it is split into three.

Four, actually. But yes, making Rome more than one faction, outside of the Optimate/Popularis and Second Triumviral civil wars, is a practice to be frowned upon.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Yeah, ha ha. It saddens me that the EB team elected to make the Casse into a faction, though I can kinda see the rationale from a playability point of view.

I can't wait to install EB.

I got the battle wrong (it was Gaugamela), but according to Arrian (in his third book of the Anabasis of Alexander - by way of Tarn, in his The Greeks in Bactria and India), 1000 mailed horsemen were furnished by the 'Sacaraucae' to Darius III at the aforementioned engagement. In addition Alexander apparently made use of some Saka auxiliaries to boost his numbers before he crossed the Paropamisadae into India. (Same source, fifth book.)

And of course, the Issyk kurgan 'golden man' is invaluable for any discussion of early Saka cataphracts.

I looked it up in Stephen Tanner's Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the Fall of the Taliban, and it was Bessus, the satrap of Bactria (and later Artaxerxes V), who brought the Scythian, Arachosian, and Sogdian horsemen to Gaugamela, including Saka from the Dahae tribe. They were the ones who made Parmenio sweat bullets while the Pezh and Hippos Hetairoi were off being glorious and stuff.

 

[Keroro]

Thanks very much Dachs. I had picked up on their being Saka units at those battles, but had interpreted it a bit differently. I had assumed that the Saka were similar to the companion cavalry in equipment, but if the horses were mailed too then that would make sense. Bessus was in charge of the Eastern cavalry units and they did chew quite a hole in the infantry line. I'll go back to Arrian (again) and try to find the references.

Cheers.

Back on topic - I guess you've always got to balance gameplay with historical accuracy, and personally I don't have a problem with a bit of tweaking to make the game better to play. The thing that annoys me about the Romans in RTW is that if CA had started a little earlier then they could have kept the faction unified and not unbalanced the gameplay much. I think that several mods have corrected that error now. It was also pretty awful that the Egyptian unit roster was from the wrong period.

 

[LightSpectra]

The thing about the three Roman families in RTW is that they were trying to simulate Caesar's civil war, and they didn't want to frustrate the player by making a random amount of their settlements rebel. Even though it's not historically accurate, I think that was a fairly clever design decision.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I think Dachs was correct that there were also Sogdian and Saka units at Issus, just not proto-Kataphractoi. Not that they could have made much of an impact anyway, Darius put himself in an effing hole in the mountain.