If God put you in charge of...

[Mr. Dictator]

Even if we do not have control over whether we sin or not (I say that, occasionally, we do, and life is judged on those moments), we can chose whether or not we'll pray for forgiveness.

How exactly do you have free will sometimes? It seems like it'd be more of an all or nothing deal.

 

[Save_Ferris]

How exactly do you have free will sometimes? It seems like it'd be more of an all or nothing deal.

For most actions, human beings will more or less act the same, possibly differently due to their current and previous states. Rarely do real moral challenges occur that separate good and absence of good (a more accurate definition for "evil", imo.

Maybe someone could explain my theory better

 

[Incodcito]

If God put you in charge of creating all the afterlives and determining who goes into what afterlife, how would you do it?

Edit: No appeals to what God already is doing, God takes all his cues from you!

Everyone goes to "Heaven", which would basically be a domain of pure pleasure with no suffering... basically, what God should have created for mankind in the first place, cutting out the middleman.

 

[Ayatollah So]

All people passing into the afterlife would become God Jrs. They'd have their own God-universe to do God-stuff in and create the kind of afterlife they wanted, but they couldn't override anything that I do.

I'd do something a little similar. It's an idea of Robert Nozick's, well worth stealing.

Everyone gets to create whatever universe, but can only populate it with souls who (A) have similar God-Jr. powers (B) know this, and (C) can leave their current universe for another of their choosing.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I'm not sure if it is that possible, I mean, our actions seem to be dependent on our thoughts, emotions, etc. How could we generate the same actions without the same thoughts?

A giant look-up table. At a reasonable level of fine-grained description, corresponding to the differences people can and can't perceive in each others' speech and actions, there are only finitely many things a person can do in a seventy year lifespan. God could make a simple program that used a look-up table to select the speech and action of a pseudo-person in any environment.

To clarify I'll add that as I see it consciousness is just a way nature turned out to organize our actions, probably a product of the limited ways of nature and its need for efficiency. In a simulation, which can afford to be resource-drawing and is not limited by biological evolution, you can skip that and limit yourself to factors resulting in action. Without the mumbo-jumbo of consciousness which will only make your heart heavy

Very well said. Consciousness is, in principle, just one way to get certain actions. We care about consciousness because that's what we have. But if we had something else, "shmonciousness", that allowed us to be intelligent and use language, we'd value that. For all we know this is possible, maybe even actual, on some other planet with evolving and reproducing organisms based on different chemistry.

 

[Godwynn]

If God put you in charge of creating all the afterlives and determining who goes into what afterlife, how would you do it?

Edit: No appeals to what God already is doing, God takes all his cues from you!

Maria Sharapova and I have our own private cloud.



Awwwww yeah!

 

[Souron]

I'd do something a little similar. It's an idea of Robert Nozick's, well worth stealing.

Everyone gets to create whatever universe, but can only populate it with souls who (A) have similar God-Jr. powers (B) know this, and (C) can leave their current universe for another of their choosing.

What about populating it with free willed people who don't have eternal souls? is that allowed?

5. God put me in charge because I am the best person for the job. Therefore, you can question my decisions, but you'll also know they're the right ones. Tough dooky if it's not revenge-y enough for you. I weep for you while you achieve everything nice that you ever thought possible, and how that's not good enough an afterlife for you, mister impossible to please.

This is why religion is bad. People become arrogant enough to think they are infallible.

I was going to say something like this, too. Mean people and evil people can't help being that way, God made them that way, or the Devil, or maybe neither of them, but still, they can't control how they were made, so why should they be judged based on something outside their control? They shouldn't. Heaven for all.

That's rather extreme. Surely some people can be held accountable for somethings?

 

[Perfection]

Maria Sharapova and I have our own private cloud.



Awwwww yeah!

Why not like have some random other girl you enjoy on a intellectual/emotional level in a uberhot form?

 

[JohnRM]

I already have a great deal of control over m "afterlife". I don't take any particular interest in others' choices.

 

[Ayatollah So]

What about populating it with free willed people who don't have eternal souls? is that allowed?

"Souls" is the poetically appropriate way to say "people" in this context. So, yeah.

Why not like have some random other girl you enjoy on a intellectual/emotional level in a uberhot form?

And have her (and yourself) change to new and varied uberhot forms as desired.

 

[Godwynn]

Why not like have some random other girl you enjoy on a intellectual/emotional level in a uberhot form?

I'm not looking for conversation on this cloud, I have another one specifically for that purpose, when I'm not on the Sharapova or CFCOT clouds.

 

[Mango Elephant]

I believe in Free Will. I don't believe God creates anyone with an inability to choose good.

That's rather extreme. Surely some people can be held accountable for somethings?

I don't believe in free will at all. In my mind it doesn't make sense. Free will means the ability to choose your destiny, and that would mean that somethings have a choice to go one way or the other, but I believe things can only go one way in life, one linear path beginning at the dawn of time and ending at the very end, if there is even an end at all, and here's why. Everything we do is influenced by variables, and these variables make it so that we have to do something. Willpower is a variable, too, and so are thoughts. Everything that we as humans do, as well as every thing that ever has happened in space and time, is a result of variables, and these variables are a result of other variables, and these variables are a result of other ones, and one can trace these lines of variables back forever. I am typing this right now because I have free time, my brain had the ability to think of what this post would consist of, because of me being a human, because of me living in a place where I can get access to a computer, because of my upbringing, because of my ability to type, and because the way my brain is wired that makes me want to do type this, and the way my personality is, as well as so many more that I as a human can't possible begin to delve into why I'm doing this right now. I can't not type this, the universe is linear, I am supposed to do this right now. Evil people do the things they do because of variables too, perhaps they know what they're doing is wrong but they lack willpower, perhaps they're crazy, perhaps they don't know what they're doing is wrong, or maybe they were simply made that way, but whatever variables contribute to evilness I can attest that it's certainly not their fault, they're at the will of the universe and everything that has happened before them, and I don't think anyone should be blamed for something they can't control.

 

[Save_Ferris]

So then what would you do, or want god to do?

 

[Mango Elephant]

Like I said last page, heaven for everyone.

 

[Save_Ferris]

In my opinion, consciousness is proof of free will. This argument isn't going anywhere, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[Souron]

I don't believe in free will at all. In my mind it doesn't make sense. Free will means the ability to choose your destiny, and that would mean that somethings have a choice to go one way or the other, but I believe things can only go one way in life, one linear path beginning at the dawn of time and ending at the very end, if there is even an end at all, and here's why. Everything we do is influenced by variables, and these variables make it so that we have to do something. Willpower is a variable, too, and so are thoughts. Everything that we as humans do, as well as every thing that ever has happened in space and time, is a result of variables, and these variables are a result of other variables, and these variables are a result of other ones, and one can trace these lines of variables back forever. I am typing this right now because I have free time, my brain had the ability to think of what this post would consist of, because of me being a human, because of me living in a place where I can get access to a computer, because of my upbringing, because of my ability to type, and because the way my brain is wired that makes me want to do type this, and the way my personality is, as well as so many more that I as a human can't possible begin to delve into why I'm doing this right now. I can't not type this, the universe is linear, I am supposed to do this right now. Evil people do the things they do because of variables too, perhaps they know what they're doing is wrong but they lack willpower, perhaps they're crazy, perhaps they don't know what they're doing is wrong, or maybe they were simply made that way, but whatever variables contribute to evilness I can attest that it's certainly not their fault, they're at the will of the universe and everything that has happened before them, and I don't think anyone should be blamed for something they can't control.

At least that's consistent.

But why does having a motive eliminate responsibility? How does being the sum one's experiences preclude responsibility? Why do you consider responsibility a nonsensical concept?

I agree that some people may be crazy and unaware that their actions are wrong, but for the rest, why is their no responsibility?

 

[Mango Elephant]

Because all actions are already dictated by variables, and these include personalities, and intelligence, among other things, and no one really chooses any of these things, so I can't condem people to Hell for the cards they were dealt. Prison is one thing, torture is another, but burning for all eternity? I can't think of a single person who deserves that.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Because all actions are already dictated by variables, and these include personalities, and intelligence, among other things, and no one really chooses any of these things

It sounds like you're saying that if the variables that lead to an action are unchosen/unfree, then the action must be unchosen/unfree too. Or to turn it around (taking the contrapositive), if the action is chosen/free, then the earlier variables would have to be chosen/free.

By way of analogy, would you also endorse the principle that if A is a human being, then A's parents (call them B and C) must also be human beings? It's a trap!

 

[Souron]

Because all actions are already dictated by variables, and these include personalities, and intelligence, among other things, and no one really chooses any of these things, so I can't condem people to Hell for the cards they were dealt. Prison is one thing, torture is another, but burning for all eternity? I can't think of a single person who deserves that.

You made a stronger claim. No only does no one deserves hell, no one deserves anything. No one is accountable for their actions. By the same token, logically no one can deserve any kind of praise either. It's impossible to be someone to look up to. Gandhi is no more of an inspiring figure than Hitler (sorry Godwin). Surely this seems incorrect?

You must have done things you are proud of. Do you not deserve respect for those things? Pride is the feeling associated with deserving praise; is pride never justified? is shame?

 

[Souron]

"Souls" is the poetically appropriate way to say "people" in this context. So, yeah.

What about robots? Can't you populate a heavenly world with robots in our likeness? The line of what qualifies as a person can be made fuzzy. Yet you say it is the basis of the one rule of the afterlife: that you cannot involuntarily hold people. But you can create them.