[RD] I'm transitioning. If you've ever been confused about the T in LGBT, ask me anything

[Omega124]

Is it in the realm of modern medicine to modify bones structure from male like to female like? e.g. widening the pelvis?

Unfortunately, this is one of the few things where we can't really do much about it. The best you can do is get hormones early enough that it influences none growth (early puberty), which of course is generally too late for most trans people when they can actually start transition (late puberty or even post puberty)

Then again as long as we're infertile due to lack of uterus transplants being a thing, it doesn't really matter in the long run. I don't think hips are really the first or even a thing most people look at. Shoulders might be more of a problem, but I'm blessed with having a more femme build in that department in the first place.

 

[Omega124]

Pretty interesting thread. For many of us, I'm sure it's a unique occasion to have a glance into the window of a completely different experience and point of view, into a world that is really "foreign".

Good, good. I'm glad people are getting that from this thread. That's what at least I am here for. I feel that getting people to at least sympathize with us, if not empathize, will erode the rampart transphobia I see on the Internet and in real life.

I've also find it both fascinating and perplexing to see the conflicted issues of significant other's and sexual attraction - both Contre's wife defining herself as heterosexual, and Omega talking about gynosexuality, and yet both ending up with someone who is the opposite of their professed preferences. Well, human behaviour is all but binary obviously.

At least with me and my boyfriend, I think there's something different between sexual attraction and romantic attraction. I'm definitely romantically attracted to him, and I wouldn't trade the bond we have for a hundred cute girls. I can see myself spending the rest of my life with him, which I think is important in a long term relationship.

If God forbid something happens to him, though, I do think I'm more likely to end up with a female partner on the next round. A lot of factors happened just right for us to get together and fall in love, and I don't think they'd nessecairly repeat themselves again. But who knows for certain? I don't really even want to think about it.

As the ever curious one, a thing that I wonder but am a bit wary to ask, because it could be something that is a sensitive spot : what do you think, and how do you deal, with people who consider that a trans is not a "real" woman ? With people who have a hard time calling you "she/her" and see you still as a man ? I'm not really talking about social interaction (I suppose you just try to avoid talking to them or the like), but more how you perceive this point of view and how it differs from yours.

It makes me feel like I'm human garbage.

I take it really personally when people are transphobic or make transphobic jokes. Especially when they deny who I am straight up. It makes me feel society as awhole hates me, even when actually I noticed most people actually are supportive.

As for anything more specific, it depends really on the why they think it. I've seen various arguments used, from both men and women, on why I'm not a woman. Like I've said before, my parents use my aspbergers as a reason (as in, since I'm autistic, I don't really know what transgenderism is and I'm just latching on a theory I got obsessed with to explain my depression), which is just incredibly patronizing to me on a personal level but doesn't really speak much else on viewpoints of trans people.

Other people use arguments ranging on pseudo biology (using fake science to try to prove that trans people will always be the sex they're not born as), to TERFer arguments that use a more sociology based reason(since we weren't raised as female, we would never know what it's truly like being female), and the classic "it's a mental disorder that we shouldn't expect society to cuddle us over".

The first argument, with biology, is interesting to me mostly because it shows how people can be so far entrenched in their own views. I have no reason to doubt that the real reason (for all three really) is "trans people are icky", but the mental gymnastics the biology crowd plays is truely outstanding. You can show them actual studies of actual researchers doing countless studies on us, how we exist, and even discovered stuff like how trans women minds are more similar to cisgender females than cisgender males, and they will always just dig their heels in and continue to espouse their bs. The worst thing is I'm seeing more and more people buy into this pseudo biology because it conforms to their initial bias of us being icky, whether or not it's actually true

The sociological argument would be interesting as a philosophical argument (I could totally see Socrates doing a dialogue based on a more general "can a thing trying to be a thing really be that thing?") if it wasn't being used to justify discrimination against us. It also generally opens a few weird can of worms, depending on exactly the argument being used. Firstly, there are some trans people who actually develop their dysphoria early on and are ended up raised in the gender they identify as. Would those transwomen, to them, be real women then? What about the trans people who successfully pull off stealth, and thus society doesn't even realize they are even trans, and treats them as their gender? Some use a more specific argument that we will never experience periods or childbirth and thus couldn't fully identify as women, but what about women with Turner syndrome then? Plus, this theory also tends to fall apart when you add transmen to the equation, since they basicilly consider them gender traitors and refuse to associate with them under the umbrella of women (which they logically should if we're men). Again, it's really fundamentally we're icky, and they're trying to doll it up with a presumption that at least on the surface looks like a genuine reason.

The last one, despite probably being the most jerkish of the three and generally attracting the worst transphobes, is ironically the one I can understand the most. The first half, that being transgender is a mental disorder, is not even wrong, although they're still buttholes in the way they represent it as a mental disorder. Being trans is fundamentally not the same as being gay; being gay doesn't make your life a living hell where you feel depressed and suicidal unless you are having sex with someone of the same sex after all. However, it's the second part where the issues arrive. It's pretty much them admitting they think we're icky, in fact. Studies have shown that transition into the gender we identify as, and not trying to give therapy to affirm the gender we were born as, is the most effective way to relive gender identity disorder. That, in fact, is why the medical field does it; if it was the opposite, they would probably tell us to just accept the gender we were born as. To just say society shouldn't "cuddle us" by "playing into our delusions", is like a modern day example of Patton slapping soldiers with PTSD. That's just being a butthole, and not an effective way to treat the very real mental condition we have.

 

[Arakhor]

There's definitely a difference between sexual and romantic attraction. "Friends with benefits" and people on the asexual spectrum can attest to that.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

As the ever curious one, a thing that I wonder but am a bit wary to ask, because it could be something that is a sensitive spot : what do you think, and how do you deal, with people who consider that a trans is not a "real" woman ? With people who have a hard time calling you "she/her" and see you still as a man ?

It makes me feel like I'm human garbage.

...

As for anything more specific, it depends really on the why they think it. I've seen various arguments used, from both men and women, on why I'm not a woman. Like I've said before, my parents use my aspbergers as a reason (as in, since I'm autistic, I don't really know what transgenderism is and I'm just latching on a theory I got obsessed with to explain my depression), which is just incredibly patronizing to me on a personal level but doesn't really speak much else on viewpoints of trans people.

Other people use arguments ranging on pseudo biology (using fake science to try to prove that trans people will always be the sex they're not born as), to TERFer arguments that use a more sociology based reason(since we weren't raised as female, we would never know what it's truly like being female), and the classic "it's a mental disorder that we shouldn't expect society to cuddle us over".

The first argument, with biology, is interesting to me mostly because it shows how people can be so far entrenched in their own views. I have no reason to doubt that the real reason (for all three really) is "trans people are icky", but the mental gymnastics the biology crowd plays is truely outstanding. You can show them actual studies of actual researchers doing countless studies on us, how we exist, and even discovered stuff like how trans women minds are more similar to cisgender females than cisgender males, and they will always just dig their heels in and continue to espouse their bs. The worst thing is I'm seeing more and more people buy into this pseudo biology because it conforms to their initial bias of us being icky, whether or not it's actually true

The sociological argument would be interesting as a philosophical argument (I could totally see Socrates doing a dialogue based on a more general "can a thing trying to be a thing really be that thing?") if it wasn't being used to justify discrimination against us. It also generally opens a few weird can of worms, depending on exactly the argument being used. Firstly, there are some trans people who actually develop their dysphoria early on and are ended up raised in the gender they identify as. Would those transwomen, to them, be real women then? What about the trans people who successfully pull off stealth, and thus society doesn't even realize they are even trans, and treats them as their gender? Some use a more specific argument that we will never experience periods or childbirth and thus couldn't fully identify as women, but what about women with Turner syndrome then? Plus, this theory also tends to fall apart when you add transmen to the equation, since they basicilly consider them gender traitors and refuse to associate with them under the umbrella of women (which they logically should if we're men). Again, it's really fundamentally we're icky, and they're trying to doll it up with a presumption that at least on the surface looks like a genuine reason.

The last one, despite probably being the most jerkish of the three and generally attracting the worst transphobes, is ironically the one I can understand the most. The first half, that being transgender is a mental disorder, is not even wrong, although they're still buttholes in the way they represent it as a mental disorder. Being trans is fundamentally not the same as being gay; being gay doesn't make your life a living hell where you feel depressed and suicidal unless you are having sex with someone of the same sex after all. However, it's the second part where the issues arrive. It's pretty much them admitting they think we're icky, in fact. Studies have shown that transition into the gender we identify as, and not trying to give therapy to affirm the gender we were born as, is the most effective way to relive gender identity disorder. That, in fact, is why the medical field does it; if it was the opposite, they would probably tell us to just accept the gender we were born as. To just say society shouldn't "cuddle us" by "playing into our delusions", is like a modern day example of Patton slapping soldiers with PTSD. That's just being a butthole, and not an effective way to treat the very real mental condition we have.

I'll apologise in advance for the massive crap fest which will probably ensue from this post...

I find it interesting that the question as posed does not specify any motivation or any ill will behind the stance, but your answers indicate that you will always see ill will or a motive based on "ickiness" behind any such views.

I'll be honest with you and admit that I probably hold such a view myself (as in that posed in the question), but can assure you there is no such ickiness or transphobia behind that.

Speaking for myself I am more than happy to treat you as you want to be treated, to address you using female terms and essentially accept you as female socially. I also have no problem accepting that you genuinely are female from a mental/psychological perspective, or see yourself as female (I'm not sure if there's even really a difference between the two concepts), and that this isn't just some phase or delusion. (As an aside, I find it interesting that there seems to be an active push to minimise the differences between male and female brains as a general rule, but in the area of trans-psychology there seems to be the opposite trend existing in parallel.) I have every sympathy for the situation that puts you in and the difficulties associated with it and you have my support in anything you choose to do to adapt or cope with any of that in a way that suits you best.

I might technically consider it a "mental disorder" in some way, but not with any kind of moral judgement attached to the notion. And I do consider the definition of "mental disorder" to be a rather arbitrary human notion anyway and in reality I would say that the line between atypical behaviour which is still "okay" and an actual mental disorder is rather blurred and up for interpretation.

But ultimately I do not believe that we have the technology or abilty to actually transform one sex into another as anything other than a fairly crude approximation. This is not a judgement on you or anyone else in the same situation, but just a recognition of reality as I see it. It also doesn't mean I don't wish it WERE possible as that would pretty much put this whole issue to bed overnight. If what we have now is good enough for YOU and makes YOU feel more complete and happier within yourself then I'm all for that and would support you in it. But it doesn't change the fact that ultimately I can't genuinely see you AS female. And I don't think you can fairly criticise people for not seeing reality the same way you do if they otherwise treat you well and with respect.

To make a horribly clunky analogy, and please don't take this as any sort of direct comparison, as an atheist how should I relate to a Christian or a Muslim or whavever else? I can treat them fairly and respect their beliefs, I can see it as morally wrong to discriminate against them in any way, but can they reasonably ask me to genuinely believe in the reality of their God in my heart? I don't believe so. Even if they tell me it makes them feel like complete garbage if I say I don't personally believe, I still don't think it's something they could reasonably expect me to change. In fact I'd say that what I actually genuinely believe to be reality is not something I even have the power to directly change anyway (and this applies to equally to both).

Ultimately I think you have every right to judge people negatively for how people TREAT you, but not really for their personal beliefs or world view. Obviously it's different if such people actually come up to you and challenge you unbidden, but again that's really a case of action and how they treat you, rather than belief. For my part it's not a belief I would have any interest in pushing on anyone, it would only really come up in a situation like this one where the topic is being actively discussed.

 

[Omega124]

I'll apologise in advance for the massive crap fest which will probably ensue from this post...

I find it interesting that the question as posed does not specify any motivation or any ill will behind the stance, but your answers indicate that you will always see ill will or a motive based on "ickiness" behind any such views.

That's because you cropped the latter half of the question.

Quote:
As the ever curious one, a thing that I wonder but am a bit wary to ask, because it could be something that is a sensitive spot : what do you think, and how do you deal, with people who consider that a trans is not a "real" woman ? With people who have a hard time calling you "she/her" and see you still as a man ? I'm not really talking about social interaction (I suppose you just try to avoid talking to them or the like), but more how you perceive this point of view and how it differs from yours.

I was literally being asked to explain my thoughts on other people's thoughts. If you have an issue with that, then yell at Akka, not me. I just thought it was an interesting question and obliged.

I'll be honest with you and admit that I probably hold such a view myself (as in that posed in the question), but can assure you there is no such ickiness or transphobia behind that.

First rule of transphobia: You don't talk about transphobia realize it's going on. I take underlying tones of arguments more seriously than "I'm not a transphobe" disclaimer. After all, you claim to be anything, but it's what you actually do that's important

But ultimately I do not believe that we have the technology or abilty to actually transform one sex into another as anything other than a fairly crude approximation. This is not a judgement on you or anyone else in the same situation, but just a recognition of reality as I see it. It also doesn't mean I don't wish it WERE possible as that would pretty much put this whole issue to bed overnight. If what we have now is good enough for YOU and makes YOU feel more complete and happier within yourself then I'm all for that and would support you in it. But it doesn't change the fact that ultimately I can't genuinely see you AS female. And I don't think you can fairly criticise people for not seeing reality the same way you do if they otherwise treat you well and with respect.

See, what exactly is holding you back from that thought? Is it the fact we can't menstruated or give birth? Because, again, that's a woman with Turner syndrome. They're born as X0 (so not XX), don't menstrate, and can't give birth. Yet no one denies them of their womanhood.

If not that, what else? Is it because of the stereotypical "man in dress" appearance the media gives us? Because I can post pictures of downright hot, like genuinely hot, transwomen, mix them with cisgender women, and I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference. The technology is better than you think it is in that department.

If its genitilia, the art of making an artificial vagina is pretty much perfected by this point. Again, I doubt you could honestly tell the difference if I did that experiment with you (not that I would for this one because that would totally break CFC rules)

If it's none of those things, then exactly what prevents me from being female? I genuinely want to know, so I know not to waste my money transitioning for a goal I could never achieve.

To make a horribly clunky analogy, and please don't take this as any sort of direct comparison, as an atheist how should I relate to a Christian or a Muslim or whavever else? I can treat them fairly and respect their beliefs, I can see it as morally wrong to discriminate against them in any way, but can they reasonably ask me to genuinely believe in the reality of their God in my heart? I don't believe so. Even if they tell me it makes them feel like complete garbage if I say I don't personally believe, I still don't think it's something they could reasonably expect me to change. In fact I'd say that what I actually genuinely believe to be reality is not something I even have the power to directly change anyway (and this applies to equally to both).

I'm an atheist too.

My sister is catholic. My best friend is Mormon. My boyfriend is a pagan. I know what it's like having different faiths from the people you love. But you know what the difference is? Them being different faith doesn't effect /me/. Their prayers nor rites don't effect me, they don't use their faith to oppress me (or convert for that matter), and at the end of the day we are all happy with each other and go home smiling.

People denying trans their gender identity, however, does effect me and other trans people. Like, do you realize over 40% of trans people have tried killing themselves? One in 12 in the U.S. end up getting /murdered/? A systematic culture which continuously denies our very existence is very much a real factor for this. Whether or not you engage in overt acts of transphobia or not, you do encourage the culture by saying that I'm only a "crude approximation" of a woman. You, in effect, other me, making me distinctly different and less human than the rest of the population, whether you intended to or not. And said othering then makes it ok for Presidential candidates to make stump speeches against us (Huckabee did so when announcing his candidacy), or states attempting to pass laws to force de jure discrimination (South Dakota, Kansas, etc).

Also it's just a real jerkish thing to say/imply, in general. Like seriously, what the hell?

 

[Akka]

I was literally being asked to explain my thoughts on other people's thoughts. If you have an issue with that, then yell at Akka, not me. I just thought it was an interesting question and obliged.

Yes, I was (well, still am) aiming at understanding the viewpoints of others. That's something I'm always curious about, difference of viewpoints and how it can flip over the perspective is always fascinating.

At the same time, I think that what Manfred did was simply doing the same, explaining his viewpoint on the question. As I said when asking it, it's delicate because it can cause a lot of unintended pain on a very sensitive subject.

If it's none of those things, then exactly what prevents me from being female? I genuinely want to know, so I know not to waste my money transitioning for a goal I could never achieve.

I'd warn you, this is a very dangerous question to ask, because the answer is inherently arbitrary and "unjust" - people can't help how they feel, nor should they forced to, and even if they don't want to hurt you and they do respect you, it can hurt just the same.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

That's because you cropped the latter half of the question.

I only cropped out this bit:

"I'm not really talking about social interaction (I suppose you just try to avoid talking to them or the like), but more how you perceive this point of view and how it differs from yours."

Because I didn't think it was necessary, i.e. it was just an extra bit of explanation for the question but didn't change the meaning of the question. Apologies if you think otherwise.

I was literally being asked to explain my thoughts on other people's thoughts. If you have an issue with that, then yell at Akka, not me. I just thought it was an interesting question and obliged.

I'm not yelling at anyone and don't really have an issue, I was just offering my own opinion.

First rule of transphobia: You don't talk about transphobia realize it's going on.

Why would that be a general rule?

I take underlying tones of arguments more seriously than "I'm not a transphobe" disclaimer. After all, you claim to be anything, but it's what you actually do that's important

This is exactly what I was saying so no arguments there.

See, what exactly is holding you back from that thought? Is it the fact we can't menstruated or give birth? Because, again, that's a woman with Turner syndrome. They're born as X0 (so not XX), don't menstrate, and can't give birth. Yet no one denies them of their womanhood.

If not that, what else? Is it because of the stereotypical "man in dress" appearance the media gives us? Because I can post pictures of downright hot, like genuinely hot, transwomen, mix them with cisgender women, and I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference. The technology is better than you think it is in that department.

If its genitilia, the art of making an artificial vagina is pretty much perfected by this point. Again, I doubt you could honestly tell the difference if I did that experiment with you (not that I would for this one because that would totally break CFC rules)

If it's none of those things, then exactly what prevents me from being female? I genuinely want to know, so I know not to waste my money transitioning for a goal I could never achieve.

I don't think it's really important why I think what I think because my point doesn't even really rely on ME being correct or even rational. My only point was that my inherent beliefs shouldn't lead to me being negatively criticise if they don't actually lead to me treating you in a way that you would not want to be treated. I think this stands as a general rule for ALL people actually - no-one has the right to control or dictate how other people view them. It is, however, a reasonable expectation to be treated fairly by them regardless of those views.

As for how you spend your money, this is a decision for you and if you consider it worhtwhile then that's all that matters. It's in no way a waste of money just because some other people might not see it they way you would want them to. Ultimately only you matter here.

I'm an atheist too.

My sister is catholic. My best friend is Mormon. My boyfriend is a pagan. I know what it's like having different faiths from the people you love. But you know what the difference is? Them being different faith doesn't effect /me/. Their prayers nor rites don't effect me, they don't use their faith to oppress me (or convert for that matter), and at the end of the day we are all happy with each other and go home smiling.

But at the end of the day you still don't believe what they believe, and I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. Likewise, just because I don't believe what you believe in this regard doesn't mean that I'm trying to oppress you or convert you to my way of thinking either. Nor am I denying your existence.

I guess the only thing I was really trying to ask was that maybe you could consider the possibility that it's possible for someone to not consider you a "real" woman, but at the same time hold no ill will or hostility towards you whatsoever, which is something that your initial answer suggested you didn't see as a possibility.

People denying trans their gender identity, however, does effect me and other trans people. Like, do you realize over 40% of trans people have tried killing themselves? One in 12 in the U.S. end up getting /murdered/? A systematic culture which continuously denies our very existence is very much a real factor for this. Whether or not you engage in overt acts of transphobia or not, you do encourage the culture by saying that I'm only a "crude approximation" of a woman. You, in effect, other me, making me distinctly different and less human than the rest of the population, whether you intended to or not. And said othering then makes it ok for Presidential candidates to make stump speeches against us (Huckabee did so when announcing his candidacy), or states attempting to pass laws to force de jure discrimination (South Dakota, Kansas, etc).

I'm sorry but I don't support any of that kind of thing and am in no way claiming you do not exist or that you are less human. I'm sorry that you see my personal view as tacitly supporting murder and discriminatory laws, but these are things that I don't condone or support so I don't feel as if I really need to be defending them or addressing them at all.

Also it's just a real jerkish thing to say/imply, in general. Like seriously, what the hell?

Sorry you feel that way, I thought I was being quite polite.

 

[Evie]

Telling someone that you know what they are better than they do ; or that your "right" to arbitrarily assign them a category of your choice trump their "right" to determine for themselves what category they fit in, is not in any way, form, or shape, respectful of them.

Once you aren't respectful, then lack of overt hostility, and apparent politeness, aren't worth squat.

 

[Zelig]

Telling someone that you know what they are better than they do ; or that your "right" to arbitrarily assign them a category of your choice trump their "right" to determine for themselves what category they fit in, is not in any way, form, or shape, respectful of them.

Once you aren't respectful, then lack of overt hostility, and apparent politeness, aren't worth squat.

That might be the case for gender categories, but obviously isn't the case in general.

 

[Evie]

Not *sure* I agree with that, but I believe it's a bit outside the scope of this thread, so I'd suggest we not pursue it here.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Telling someone that you know what they are better than they do ; or that your "right" to arbitrarily assign them a category of your choice trump their "right" to determine for themselves what category they fit in, is not in any way, form, or shape, respectful of them.

Once you aren't respectful, then lack of overt hostility, and apparent politeness, aren't worth squat.

I politely disagree with your reasoning.

Edit: I should really have said that I politely disagree that your summation is an accurate represenation of what I said.

 

[sophie]

Why would that be a general rule?

Because that's literally what microagressions are.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Because that's literally what microagressions are.

I'm asking why it should be a general rule that anyone who is transphobic, or indeed holds any negative attitude towards any specific demographic, would be unaware that they hold such views? To me this isn't a logically self-evident statement so it needs some explanation. I don't think your sentence offers that.

And speaking for myself personally, given that I AM aware that I definitely do think all of the following...

Speaking for myself I am more than happy to treat you as you want to be treated, to address you using female terms and essentially accept you as female socially. I also have no problem accepting that you genuinely are female from a mental/psychological perspective, or see yourself as female (I'm not sure if there's even really a difference between the two concepts), and that this isn't just some phase or delusion. I have every sympathy for the situation that puts you in and the difficulties associated with it and you've have my support in anything you choose to do to adapt or cope with any of that in a way that suits you best.

... then I will take some convincing that I am actually secretly and unknowingly transphobic in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

[Senethro]

Anyone feel like theres an absurd amount of mental lawyering going on? Like the christian who says they "hate the sin but love the sinner", therefore they are not homophobic?

 

[Akka]

I'd prefer to hear the viewpoints, opinions, explanations and feelings of the actually concerned, instead of the usual thought police, personally.

 

[Hygro]

One in 12 in the U.S. end up getting /murdered/?

How recent was this study?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Anyone feel like theres an absurd amount of mental lawyering going on? Like the christian who says they "hate the sin but love the sinner", therefore they are not homophobic?

You could maybe save this post until a point where I mention anything about hating anything (or even disliking or disapproving of anything for that matter).

 

[Lexicus]

Why would that be a general rule?

It's a general rule because people who are racist/transphobic/homophobic/whatever will engage in almost any amount of mental gymnastics or "lawyering" in order to deny that they are racist/transphobic/homophobic/whatever.

I have seen people flat-out claim that black people are genetically doomed to lesser mental faculties than white people and then in the next sentence deny that they are racist. They will say things like "well if it's true it can't be racist." I've seen this probably a dozen times at least, while I've seen the "what's so bad about racism anyway?" only once.

I know this is all purely anecdotal, but I think it should give an idea of what we're talking about here.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

To me that sounds like people claiming something they don't really believe rather than genuinely being unaware of it.

 

[Omega124]

I only cropped out this bit:

"I'm not really talking about social interaction (I suppose you just try to avoid talking to them or the like), but more how you perceive this point of view and how it differs from yours."

Because I didn't think it was necessary, i.e. it was just an extra bit of explanation for the question but didn't change the meaning of the question. Apologies if you think otherwise.

It completely changes the tone of the question. Without it, the question is more "how do I deal with people who misgender me personally" rather than "how do you view people who misgender you?". Completely different question and it's disingenuous to call me out for commenting on people's intentions when that was the question in itself.

Why would that be a general rule?

Because most people aren't consciously transphobic/homophobic/racist etc, either because they don't care enough to go to outspoken bigot levels, or they don't realize they hold bigoted views, or they don't think there is a problem with having bigoted views if they aren't literally KKK or other hate groups. Because of that, people can harbor some really terrible views without nessecairly realizing anything is wrong, or not caring that they're wrong.

I mean, think about the own language that you used in your first post. You literally said transgender people can never be more than a crude approximation of the gender they identify as. Firstly, would you ever call someone a crude approximation of /anything/ unless you were trying to pick a fight with them? That's just a straight up insult, no matter how you try to spin it. But beyond that, you are basicilly saying I'll never be female. You are, even if you don't realize you are, denying me of my womanhood with that comment, by saying that I'm only a crude approximation of one. Think about it, if I'm a crude approximation of a woman, then what the hell am I actually? If I can't achieve being a woman, the only logical other awnser is....

Now do you see the issue? You misgendered me, despite saying you wouldn't without realizing that you did. Transphobia is so ingrained into our collective psyche (we're really the only first Western generation ok with it, and due to Western influences, a lot of cultures once ok with it have started to not be so) , that it can be hard to realize one is being so. Hell, there's times where I've subconsciously made transphobic remarks myself (I remember one time saying regular women instead of cisgender when typing a post. I corrected it before I hit post, but it still stands my mind subconsciously thinks cisgender is regular and transgender is other)

I don't think it's really important why I think what I think because my point doesn't even really rely on ME being correct or even rational. My only point was that my inherent beliefs shouldn't lead to me being negatively criticise if they don't actually lead to me treating you in a way that you would not want to be treated. I think this stands as a general rule for ALL people actually - no-one has the right to control or dictate how other people view them. It is, however, a reasonable expectation to be treated fairly by them regardless of those views.

Oh hell no.

You do not get to do drive by pot shots at me and my identity and then say "respect my intolerance". You either put up or shut up. Because at the end of the day, if you can't defend why I'm not a woman, then it probably means I am, in fact, one

But at the end of the day you still don't believe what they believe, and I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. Likewise, just because I don't believe what you believe in this regard doesn't mean that I'm trying to oppress you or convert you to my way of thinking either. Nor am I denying your existence.

Again, our choice in different faiths /do not impact each other/. and you know why it doesn't? Because we can respect each other's viewpoints as being valid, even if I don't nessecairly agree or even like them. Your decision to consider me not a real woman impacts me because you are saying my viewpoint of myself is fundamentally not valid. You are in effect saying I'm wrong about myself. Your religion analogy does not work because I'm not saying their religion is wrong, but that I have my own, different one, and we can all be cool praying or not praying to whatever deities we do or do not believe in.

I guess the only thing I was really trying to ask was that maybe you could consider the possibility that it's possible for someone to not consider you a "real" woman, but at the same time hold no ill will or hostility towards you whatsoever, which is something that your initial answer suggested you didn't see as a possibility.

No, it's not possible, because not considering people the gender that they identify as is ill will in itself. It's downright malicious; the only question is if people realize they're being malicious or not. Most people actually fall on the latter, and I can't judge them for simply not knowing. Hence me willing to have a dialogue. But once they know, and they continue their path, that's when I lose sympathy.

I'm sorry but I don't support any of that kind of thing and am in no way claiming you do not exist or that you are less human. I'm sorry that you see my personal view as tacitly supporting murder and discriminatory laws, but these are things that I don't condone or support so I don't feel as if I really need to be defending them or addressing them at all.

Thats the thing. Most people don't support murder and discrimination. Some will even condemn it. But what they won't do, is condemn the societal institutions which allowed those actions to exist in the first place because that forces them to admit they're part of the problem. And no one likes admitting they are.

I'm asking why it should be a general rule that anyone who is transphobic, or indeed holds any negative attitude towards any specific demographic, would be unaware that they hold such views? To me this isn't a logically self-evident statement so it needs some explanation. I don't think your sentence offers that.

Did you even google what a microagression was? Because microagression is basicilly the phenonoem I'm describing (although I dislike the term myself so I don't use it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression_theory

Its thrown around too liberally nowadays, but in this case it's a perfect match.

I'd prefer to hear the viewpoints, opinions, explanations and feelings of the actually concerned, instead of the usual thought police, personally.

I agree. The easiest way is to ask us more questions, like beloooooooow~

How recent was this study?

Well, I just looked it up, and to my actual relief I realized it was actually an urban legend (or perhaps a lifetime murder statistic that got confused for a murder rate). It did seem a little too high in retrospect. So, sorry about that, I'll admit I screwed up there

Actual report here http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/13/transgender-homicide-victims-us-has-hit-historic-high

That being said though, per capita between how many trans murders there are, it is way out of proportion to society as a large. I honestly do fear for my life sometimes in this country, especially as trump continues to rallies reactionaries into a political mainstream. It used to be only the crazy Christians and old people were the intolerant people here in NY, but now it's becoming more fashionable to be intolerant. I live on a campus granted so it's still pretty hugbox liberal here, but NY is not as accepting as people think it is.