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[BTS] Immortal Justinian

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by jnebbe, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Bad luck with that barb archer spawn, but....
    Why on the earth would you move that warrior in the first place? You where in a situation where your defences where stretched, you had only warriors for defence and relatively few at that.
    There was no rush to start exploring the jungle, that warrior would have been standing post on that jungle hill, that was his job.
    If I was playing that, and reached BW and popped copper in the capital, that would be a queue for me to push forward abit.

    Hoping for horses for production I think is wrong. You have both granary and slavery now, so the need for hammers are basically zero at this point. That forested PH's production was only there for you to utilize in the very beginning to get some crucial warriors out if you are working it still you are probably doing it wrong.

    If you need hammers then you put 29/60 or 39/100 into a worker/settler and whip them, but if you don't need hammers, just whip them right away without delaying.

    Working incense sounds like a red herring, if that will ever happen it will happen so late that you don't have to consider it. Calendar first and then a million worker turns to get them improved.

    Regarding tech, you might have to consider archery tbh, you have no copper and there is no telling how large that jungle is and the only defence you will get in a long time is chariots, there might start to spawn spears/axes!

    1 worker by now is absolutely too late. You still have forest standing after BW, the you had to few workers. :D
     
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  2. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    Spoiler Detailed City Info :
    Detailed City Info.png
     
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  3. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    I guess I just wanted to see if there was also fish there. Hindsight is 20/20


    This is something I'm still getting used to, I probably don't whip enough. In my mind I have all this river grassland I'd like to cottage, and Ideally would just have capital grow with the 2 corns, then whipping out settlers. I don't want to whip away cottages of course.
    Should I be expanding faster?

    And just to clarify, I should only be 3pop whipping settlers if I actually need said settler right?


    I guess that's true, using that 4 extra food is better used on 3 plains cottages to grow even larger which would also give more commerce in the long run



    True, after that then what? Is writing->math still ok? Perhaps alphabet since it's likely I'm isolated with hammurabi and I want to build research soon


    Do you build a 2nd worker after settling 2nd city? I feel like that slows down your 3rd city so much. I've always done 3rd city before 2nd worker.


    Ty for the feedback :thumbsup:
     
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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, I forgot to say last turn, you have checked if Hammurabi is putting all his espionage points on you, right? If he doesn't that means he knows someone else apart from you.

    It is hindsight, and I would have been curious too. But thats situational awareness that one develops over time. The plan to scout for fish there was good, but the timing was bad, if that makes sense.

    Writing sounds very reasonable. Not 100% sure about math. And even if you are in semi-iso, Hammy will trade away Alphabet (And monotheism, and monarchy, iirc). Techs that "doesn't unlock units nor wonders".
    Consider again after writing is in.

    Regarding workers, yes if you go worker->settler->settler, instead of worker->settler->worker->settler, your third city will be faster. But consider how much more productive your second city would have been, if a worker would have made a chop into a granary and you would have gotten that up faster.
    There really isn't any firm rules for how to keep the balance, each map is unique in that regard. In some maps you can get away with only 1-2 workers for your first 6 cities, while in others you have 4-5 workers by the time you settle your third.
    In other maps, you might have to let your cities develop miserably due to lack of workers, because you are desperate to claim land before the AI does.
    I'm a big fan of workers in general, and it's quite common for me to go for two workers even before the first settler if there is less rush to claim a spot, and if I have alot to chop, or if I go super early cottages on floodplains.

    Surplus food into plains-cottages sounds even more terrible than working incense.
    The incense can be a good tile to use some turns or some period of turns, when you want to direct your empire toward teching or cash buildup. But they should not be though of something that you should work constantly.
    Don't stagnate your cities, let them grow constantly put them such a intense whip-cycle as the happycap allows.
    And you do need settlers, constantly, either you settle the land or you choose to stay small to streamline teching capacity to reach some military tech to conquer land the AI settled for you.
    Pottery is in, and after pottery it's no bars hold, every good spot should be settled asap! Tanking the economy completely is no problem after pottery.

    No problem with feedback, I just hope it's useful enough.. It's so hard to figure out what pieces you already have, and what pieces are relevant for you at this stage.
    And I do hope that I don't sound like a complete ass too. :D
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Re: incense. Yep it is such a bad tile you should be close to never working it. Think how much worse it is than a specialist for example, assuming that specialist leads to the generation of a great person.

    This is something I've noticed while giving advice to people climbing up in levels - nearly everyone is too greedy in their scouting. Patience, knowledge if there is fish doesn't change much for now, you have nice unclaimed :food:-resources anyway. Also people tend to try to fog bust massive areas of land. Only rarely you can stop the barbs from spawning, so it's more of a question where should you allow them to spawn. Probably in directions that don't get your improvements pillaged. Having archers would bring you quite a lot of safety in this position and you have no pressing need to get writing, math, alpha...

    I think alpha is a bad idea. It's one of the rare techs they will give you when semi-isolated, another important one is monarchy. I don't think building :science: plays a role really. If you need :commerce:, work cottages, not mines. :) I don't think math brings a lot of benefit, but of course it's on a path to some good stuff like CS. I think I would go (archery?-)writing-medi-ph-CoL here, caste is really good for SPI leaders, it's on the way to bulb philo (unlocking the best religious civic) and on the way to liberalism (astro?). You will get alpha and monarchy from Hams for free, eventually.

    Agree with krikav than an extra worker would make a big difference. You are pretty early with those granaries, the issue is that since you are not chopping you are not getting them quickly. Of course the position is completely fine nevertheless.

    While I think 2nd city should be founded as soon as possible, the same is not true for 3rd, because the maintenance cost is so much higher that it will be :science:-negative. Here I think 2nd worker was better in order to chop every claimed forest immediately.
     
  6. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    Spoiler :


    I'm not too knowledgeable on espionage but I believe this means it's just me and Hammurabi on this continent



    Chop in Thessa and Adrian, whip a settler+worker and the OF completes granary in both cities
    Going hunting->archery. Hunting gives happiness from ivory and luckily I can still make warriors for HR since I don't have copper







    Worker turns were especially bad here, took me forever to farm that rice :sad:
    Definitely noticed that 3 workers here was not enough
    Archery finished, building a few archers while cities grow (is it still worth still building warriors for HR?)




    Not enough cottages here for sure, I'm able to squeeze out writing and will then settle 5th city on the east




    Antioch settled T73. Only +7:gold:pt but I'm going to be whipping libraries instead of settlers for now which should give time for cottages to develop.
    5 cities, 5 workers, all cities except Antioch have granaries.
    Still feel like I could use another worker or 2

    Tried whipping settlers very aggressively, I think it turned out fine


    I think I'm really undervaluing specialists. The way I see it running a scientist is 3:science:pt, and if I can bulb philosophy thats 1200ish:science:/33 turns to generate it, 6ish:science: per turn (and that GS is giving less :science: over time since each GS will take more GP to spawn). I'd rather develop cottages which could give up to 8:commerce: ea which can be used for both :gold: or :science:, and you also keep growing pop while working cottages which means more whipping power later on. Maybe I'm thinking too long term here. Atm I only run scientists for philo bulb and if I can't work any improvement earlygame, but it seems this isn't the best way to use them.

    In the spirit of learning I want to try caste+pacifism and see how that goes
     
  7. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Well, maybe the reason for undervaluing them stems from your calculus skills. :) 1200/33 is roughly 36, making the value of a scientist specialist around 40:science:, assuming you haven't spawned any :gp: yet and will be bulbing philo. That's why stuff like incense is ~never worth working and that's why many 0:food:-tiles are weak, even gold which is good only at the beginning of the game (pre-granary, pre-library).

    Your point on diminishing returns is valid. Getting the 2nd :gp: is twice as expensive as the first one. My general solution is to get the first 1-2 out the hard way (=running 2 sci via library) and get the rest out in rapid succession under the best possible conditions (=golden age, caste+pacifism). At that point I aim to be in a position where further :gp:-production doesn't really matter. You need a 2nd one only if you are not going music (=you need to start the golden age somehow). Understanding this strategy probably makes it easier to understand why I dislike academies and why I'd build one only in very long games or with a PHI leader.

    However, in general I do like cottages more, because they allow your cities to grow, which is awesome not only because you get to work more tiles, but because it gives you a lot of flexibility. If you need :commerce:/:science:, you grow working cottages, perhaps work specialists when at :)-cap. If you need :hammers:, you whip.

    edit: I mean that there is no reason to go overboard running specialists (=run them in like 5 cities), just get one to bulb philo, one to start GA and have the rest of the cities grow. During the GA, you are again reaching something like 40:science: per sci.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  8. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    Wow I don't know how my math was that wrong (prob cause I was doing mental math in the shower :crazyeye:)
    Don't you also get more bulbs per GS later in the game? Does it still make sense to bulb later on?
     
  9. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    At some point it takes more sense to run GA with GPersons even if it takes 3-4 of them. Mostly due to empire size and bulbing paths.

    Obviously you get one bulb per Great Person (if the person is not GSpy). Bulb is smthing like 1k beakers +2 beakers per pop (standard size and normal speed) which is x1.5 for GScientist.

    So strictly speaking if one bulbs Philo (standard size, normal speed, imm level) there are 200+3xcitizen size worth of beakers wasted. Well, there are other reasons why Philo is a good bulb. I think by dodging Masonry it is possible to bulb Philo with GArtist (from Music), but generally under normal conditions player would loose more beakers in bulb prerequisites and not being able to trade for stuff blocked by not having Masonry than any potential gain.

    I think Paper is even more wasteful bulb (under 1k probably) - stuff like 2x bulbing Education is probably better then bulbing Paper. Although getting some tech faster might be more of value than getting all the beakers. One of the ways to get good usage of bulbs is to line them in the fast way to reach preferred liberalism target.

    I don't think I ever bulbed beyound SciFi method, but in theory Biology is a target - good trade fodder and is on the way to Sushi corp. Communism is in theory bulbable, but I don't recall seeing it being done - at least not fully bulbed (probably cause it is rather low on the priority list and being more than 2 bulbs).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I don't think jnebbe is planning to start playing on monarch though. I think on immortal philo is 1300:science:.
     
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Merchants can become more valuable than scientists after liberalism. Depending on the size of the target city, trade mission can be worth +2000:gold:. Other types of :gp: are in general weaker and should be used as golden age fodder. GE to rush Taj or Kremlin can be a decent option.

    Edit: oh, forgot GSpy which can be worth some ten thousand :science: if you have someone to steal from. Should happen only on deity though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    This is how you usually get GPersons later in the game:
    Spoiler Paci push :


    Don't mind the turn here, I did a first GA abit premature and then did alot of whipping, so empire wasn't ready for a second GA until very late.
    While many other cities built or whipped factories, I didn't whip any factory (or units) here, instead this city got to grow as big as it could. Working ocean to get higher in pop too).

    Once the GA started, this city started working only crab+specialists for about 3 turns, eating away at the food bar.
    Then it worked crab+ and 2-3 coastal tiles for one turn to reach a empty food bar.
    After that, every citizen becomes a specialist, and I get an absolute insane return for food -> greatpeople points.
    At pop 12 (which took 21 food to grow.) running I pay 21 food to starve from 12->11, and I get to work 12 specialists at +200% GPgeneration.
    The ratio gets just more and more absurd, the larger you have managed to grow your cities too.

    Civ4ScreenShot0047.JPG
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @jnebbe
    That looks pretty decent. But the horse-city looks like an eyesore (allthough minor) why would you kill a grassland tile and save the desert? It's also a tiny bit further away from capital (more upkeep) and it now reaches fewer river tiles.

    You have expanded rapidly now, and your slider is probably low and will be for a while.
    In this case, it doesn't make sense to whip libraries everywhere, but rather to mature some cottages. You do need some, and they are a good long term investment, but you should absolutely not whip away cottages to get them, and even lowering your happy-cap momentarily to whip them should be considered carefully first.

    Yes, it does look like you and Hammy are alone. You should scout him out somewhat soon, so you know if you should just sit tight, develop and go for astro, or if you want to take his land right away instead.
    Might consider making a road toward him too, if it's not prohibitivly long, because he will likely want to do the hard work of spamming missionaries for you, and a road to him makes that process much faster.

    He will trade you alpha, monarchy and monotheism (if he gets them, which isn't certain) but it might be possible for you to do one revolt to HR+OR, and then once you are ready to do the paci-push, you start a GA and then enter caste+paci.

    Keep in mind that Hammy is of culture flavour too, so it could make sense for you to just tech toward optics, with a gift city or two (which are cheap with justinian) and shared religion, he will become your best buddy and you can just get any of the techs you need by giving him MC/Machinery/Compass/optics.
     
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I would've been more interested in settling north than east. For example, settling on the sugar is immediately +4:food:, as much as rice+horse is with the rice improved. Besides, banana is already claimed by culture, waiting to be farmed. Lots of green riverside cottages there. It's closer, more :commerce:, less maintenance, less worker turns, somehow easier in every way. I don't think the ability to build chariots is worth anything now.

    Agree with krikav, don't whip libraries, only when you are growing unhappy. Keep slider at 0% for now, waiting for libraries. I wouldn't build one in mediocre places like rice+horse. Slow build workers(/settlers?) with the help of some chops (if the city has no granary, if it has, whip workers/settlers).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  15. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    It can share 5 grassland tiles with the 2 middle cities+a city by the south clams, vs sharing 4 when settling on desert, I thought that would be more important short-term

    Of course, I mainly meant to develop existing cities vs settling new cities


    Yes will scout him soon.
    As far as tech trading goes, does him only knowing me change what he's willing to trade?

    I want to try techpath sampsa said earlier, writing just finished so meditation->ph->col->bulb philo at some point, then I'll start working towards optics. Anything else I should aim for, perhaps currency?


    Should I be going calendar soon since I'll need it to get happiness from sugar, and then I may as well plantation the bananas
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Sharing grassland tiles isn't something I considered. Are you sure thats relevant?
    It can be important around a future burocracy-capital, as the capital is too small to work all tiles by itself early on.
    Food shring on the other hand is way important.

    That Hammy only knows you, makes him unwilling to trade you any techs at all, except alphabet, monotheism and monarchy, which he is willing to trade to you even if you are in semi-iso.
    It's "techs that enable no unit nor any wonder" so later it's also things like printing press and replacable parts, but the three I mentioned above is the only ones I think are relevant in semi-iso.
    If you get him to friendly he will trade you anything.

    Currency and Calendar sounds lovely, but to get everything done you need to focus can't do little of that and little of that. You have some time for detours before astro but not all. :) Maybe CoL is worth it, maybe bulbing philo is worth it, maybe self-teching calendar is worth it.
    Currency is probably not worth it though, no overseas traderoutes with Hammy, and no islands to settle... so the benefit would likely be small. Better to just build research if you get alpha from Hammy, or just plan ahead so that you have useful things to build.
     
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  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yeah, I wouldn't do any sacrifices trying to set up an optimal bureaucracy capital. It's often just better to make the most of your land NOW than later. Many cities do the job better than one city anyway. This is also a bit connected to what I said about :gp: earlier - if you understand why an academy is usually weaker than bulbing, the value of bureaucracy goes down (because bureau and :science:-bonus buildings have strong synergy). Don't get me wrong, bureaucracy a great civic, but not something you should be sacrificing a lot to get asap i.e. not as important as expansion for example.

    On tech path, I guess one could make some kind of case for going for calendar instead of CoL-philo -line, but in general I think caste+paci make you much more good than getting access to some tiles (you already have a lot of nice tiles), but of course +2 :) would be nice. Religion and cheap temples to the rescue? Anyway, remember those 40:science: specialists caste+paci can offer you... ;)

    Things that could alter things towards calendar: not being SPI (great for CoL-philo -line) or having marble (for MoM). I think you'll get the feel for these things only through playing the game and seeing what really is good and what only looks good on paper.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I constantly forget about SPI and temples...
    Getting CoL (Confucianism) and bulbing Phi (Taoism) paired with Hammys Buddhism could be really nice here.
    Although, don't overdo it. Even half-price temples cost you 40 hammers, where as warriors with monarchy only cost you 15. (They cost upkeep though.)
    But with that in mind, the value of alphabet and currency should be lowered alot.

    I too think that burocracy capital gets overrated abit oftentimes. It can be really good, but in such a way that popping BFC copper can be good.
    It's not always you "pop" a good burocracy capital.
     
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  19. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    Spoiler :

    Immediately whip out a worker so now I have 5 cities 6 workers


    Start sending a warrior to look for hammy
    Going to go medi->ph->col->bulb philo, calendar can wait until I start going for optics





    Slowbuilding libraries->archers in all cities. Even with 6 workers I'm still working the unimproved tile every now and then





    Whipped a settler from Nicaea I think and founded city on the sugar, banana was farmed in advance so it can grow immediately
    Trying to let cities grow to -2 happiness before whipping them





    I road this tile and suddenly I have a trade route to hammy, I assume from this river





    Trade for gold here, I get 1 unhealthiness but 2 cities become happy so I think it's worth (later on I check and it still says he has 2 golds to trade so he has 3 total :crazyeye:)




    Economy is doing better now. Capital and adrian both have libraries, all cities except the sugar city have graneries
    Surprised I still haven't found his borders yet, I was a little greedy and I don't think I have enough military.
    Hammy also doesn't have copper surprisingly, his best unit is a chariot so not a threat

    I won't have the gold for CoL for a little while so I want to tech fishing at 0% just using scientist beakers and settle that wheat and clam, lots of forests to chop + grasslands + food for a lot of specialists. After that CoL, then probably math since I need it for philo bulb, and then work towards optics




     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The traderoute to Hammy could also be along the coast, since that river is connected to the coast, he has sailing and thats what makes it possible to trade resources there.
    Be careful with opening borders with him, because if he has sailing and have scouted you, he will get traderoutes in all his cities but you won't. Might be worth postponing opening abit so you don't boost him.

    Antioch could have been at the coast, if you had that you could have built workboats there so you have them available right when settling clam/fish.

    With 3 golds... he will for sure be steamrolling along in tech, rolling over him somehow got abit less likely.

    If you want CoL, you should go CoL even with the science beakers, but you might prioritize getting fishing first ofcourse, but it's not like those science beakers are free, they could get you started along the path toward CoL, and that might be the differance with getting the religion or not.

    I see nothing that looks disastrous in the screenshots!
     
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