Improving on Monarch level

[Todelotti]

I'd advise you to read CIV Illustrated #1, that guide answers almost the complete AI behaviour, so i. E. Also why Mansa gives you the extra +2.

OK, that explains it: Mansa's threshold for "Shared tech discoveries" bonus is 5 tech trades, but Zara's is 20. That's indeed a great guide and reference.

 

[kevtrev]

@ kev: I believe you didn't read the post of elite.

You're right. And I get it now. The OF are unmodified, and then the modifiers for the new build are applied, which makes lots of sense.

 

[Todelotti]

OSWP (Oxford-Super-Whip-Project) is prepared now:

- 2 universities finished
- 3rd university needs 3 normal turns
- 4th university this turn with 2-pop-whip possible (11 normal turns)
- 5th university this turn with 4-pop-whip possibly or next turn with 3-pop-whip (8 normal turns)
- Capital: University, Grocer and Market for 2-pop-whip Max-OF ready

Capital: I put the University into the queue and whip. Then Grocer into queue and whip. Then Market into the queue and whip. All THIS turn, so I will lose 6 pop in capital this turn.

For 3rd university: I let the production finish normally without whip.
For 4th university: 2-pop whip this turn or next turn or the turn after next turn (doesn't matter I assume)
For 5th university: 3-pop whip next turn or the turn after next turn (doesn't matter either)

I put Oxford into the build queue in capital at the turn when the Market is built.

Did I get that right? No, I didn't, right?

 

[Seraiel]

Correct unless 1 small thing:

You don't need to whip the capital 3 times in 1 turn, you can whip those builds at 1 / turn, so whip University, next turn whip Market (OF gets stored and added) next turn Grocer (same) and then put OX in the queue.

Just make sure, that you don't accidentally don't whip in one turn, because then you produce something else instead of OX.

Make also sure you have Stone, as it speeds up OX geeatly. You can set research to 0% until you got OX to then have some money with which you can research, having more bonuses now.

And definitely give both Foods to the capital, so it regrows as quick as possible.

 

[Todelotti]

OK, I'll do that now (with a save for each turn, just in case...). Stone is available.

PS: Scientific Method after Steel, right?

 

[Seraiel]

OK, I'll do that now (with a save for each turn, just in case...). Stone is available.

PS: Scientific Method after Steel, right?

Yes. ^^

 

[Todelotti]

Is that the expected result? I'm worried it is not because you said earlier we hope for finishing Oxford in 1 turn, but is still 6 turns and that's already with not working all possible cottages but mines instead and borrowing the stone hammers from the HE city. Otherwise Oxford needed 8 turns or even more. I'm afraid I did something wrong, but I can't see the mistake...

 

[Seraiel]

Your capital is very low on hammers and you didn't have maximum OF. We should have whipped a 4th building like an AP-Temple, but at least we shortened the build by 9T already.

You can see, if the Temple still would work, put 1T in it, look how much OF you'd make, if it's a lot, whip and finish Oxford next turn with the OF (or at least speed it up, your capital really had very few Hammers) .

I also forgot, that you're not IND, which would have made the difference on its own.

 

[elitetroops]

Did you work max hammers all 3 turns you whipped? Those are also added to overflow.

Quickest way to get more of hammers would be to put 9 hammers into a spy. AP temple might be more useful though. In any case, current overflow must first be dumped into oxford.

 

[Seraiel]

Did you work max hammers all 3 turns you whipped? Those are also added to overflow.

Quickest way to get more of hammers would be to put 9 hammers into a spy. AP temple might be more useful though. In any case, current overflow must first be dumped into oxford.

I don't think that a Spy would work, he's got +75% for capital and Forge.

 

[elitetroops]

Oops, you're right. Just went from memory there with the easiest early whip overflow. At least a 60 hammer build is needed then.

 

[Pangaea]

Due to relatively few hammers in the capital, I would have preferred to mine all the hills. I understand you wanted those financial windmills, but I think more hammers there is more valuable at this point than a little more commerce from hills/windmills that you probably don't work most of the time anyway. With mines there, you have the option to squeeze out more hammers when you need it.

Surprised there wasn't more overflow into Oxford, but then I've never used this trick myself so am not sure exactly how it works and how much OF one can get. Did you really whip all three buildings at (close to) max overflow?

Edit: I see there is a forest you could have chopped too, but I guess it would have gone to a different city?

 

[Seraiel]

Working all Hammer tiles when whipping the buildings seems to be the key. Todelotti generated 75 OF while 120 would have been possible.

Thanks for bringing light to this case elitetroops, this method is even for me quite new, so I didn't realize that much more OF would have been possible.

Will help in the current Gauntlet .

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, to one turn it you need 134 hammers. Max whip overflow is 29. Work 2 mines, one windmill and stone all 3 turns of whipping and you get 41 overflow/whip (including one hammer from city tile). Then you need only 11 hammers the last turn.

But if you got only 75 of from 3 whips, including the hammers from tiles being worked those turns, you probably only got 20 hammers average whip overflow. Still much better than nothing, but it could be improved by maxing the hammers while whipping.

 

[Todelotti]

Did you work max hammers all 3 turns you whipped?

I adjusted the worked tiles a bit to favour the mines, yes, but not sure if it was optimized til the last possible hammer. Probably not.

Due to relatively few hammers in the capital, I would have preferred to mine all the hills. I understand you wanted those financial windmills, but I think more hammers there is more valuable at this point than a little more commerce from hills/windmills that you probably don't work most of the time anyway. With mines there, you have the option to squeeze out more hammers when you need it.

Yes, looking back, I would have prefered to mine more hills probably as well. There even was actually one mine on a hill where a windmill is now. But the mine has been destroyed by a hostile spy and then I decided to build a windmill instead because the capital was already quite large and I thought, now it's the time for max bureau commerce. I didn't expect that we'll do such a slave massacre in the capital. I even have whipped the Jewish temple now as the 4th whip as Seraiel suggested. Wow, 4 whips in a row in the capital, 8 citizens killed, 36 turns whip anger - that's against everything what I have been teached in my earlier games... But the capital will regrow fast with both corn tiles and happiness is no problem. I guess, Oxford is worth this exception from the rule.

Did you really whip all three buildings at (close to) max overflow?

I checked that carefully and I'm relatively sure it was at least close to max.

Edit: I see there is a forest you could have chopped too, but I guess it would have gone to a different city?

I had seen this forest as well and chopped it now. And it went indeed into the capital and contributed to Oxford (with 24 hammers) and reduced the turns to 4 til Oxford is finished (and that was even before temple whip). So, in the end, it's not perfect but quite OK, I think.


If someone wants to try and perhaps optimize the Oxford-Superwhip I have attached a save from the turn (1150 AD) when the first whip should happen:

- University is already in queue in Nidaros for the 1st whip
- 1160 AD: Add Grocer to queue in Nidaros and whip, and whip the universities in Bjorgvin and in Uruk
- 1170 AD: Add Market to queue in Nidaros and whip
- Let the last missing university finish normally without whip in Monty's Grave. It completes just in time.
- Ignore the university in Uppsala. It's basically the 7th university.
- 1180 AD: Put Oxford into queue in Nidaros to see the remaining turns until completion

 

[Todelotti]

Hm, Mansa started to research Scientific Method now. He skipped the Education and Nationalism route and went Printing Press->Chemistry instead. Now, I'm wondering if we should prefer to research something else and try to trade Scientific Method later.

One option would be: Trade Printing Press for Banking with Zara. Then research Economics. Or maybe we could go Nationalism ourselves (for Taj Mahal). Or Astronomy. Or?

 

[Seraiel]

Take Banking and research economy. Remember our GA plans . You'll soon have State Property, and with your empire having grown large, all Civic changes take multiple turns, which we don't want.
In addition, the GA will give us the oppotunity to draft some Muskets. I hope you already built enough Cannons, if not, start .

 

[Todelotti]

Take Banking and research economy. Remember our GA plans . You'll soon have State Property, and with your empire having grown large, all Civic changes take multiple turns, which we don't want.
In addition, the GA will give us the oppotunity to draft some Muskets. I hope you already built enough Cannons, if not, start .

I'm in front of BurgerKing's 4th city with 6 cannons. They are indeed very effective! I captured 3 cities including capital (with Stonehenge, Buddhist shrine and another Academy) and an 11-pop Prague.

BTW: If I need additional offensive units I prefer Knights over Elephants now, right?

Yes, I had the GA in mind with Economics. The GS in Uppsala is already twiddling his thumbs and waiting. I think I will trade Divine Right instead of Printing Press for Banking with Zara.

 

[Seraiel]

Trading DR is definitely better, as you should still have a monopoly on PP.

Regarding offensive units, wait. Once we're in the GA, we will draft Muskets out of the size 6+ cities. Drafting is the ultimate way to get cheap units.
We will btw. also want to switch into Pacifism at the end of the GA so a lot reasons to get it.

 

[jackelgull]

Hey, long time lurker of this thread here. I just want to say great work here.

Also, I have often heard that drafting is better for spamming units than whipping. Why is this? I mean, I know the pop to hammers conversion is better, but does't the extra unhappiness from drafting make it weaker?