In the Beginning...

[Arakhor]

Well, we must be, because there aren't any ant-people in Civ.

 

[Lexicus]

Even in Civ a nuclear war in 2023 BC would be a bit hard to pull off.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, we must be, because there aren't any ant-people in Civ.

If you talk nicely to one of the modders, I'm sure they could flange some up.

Even in Civ a nuclear war in 2023 BC would be a bit hard to pull off.

Enable the Cheat Mode.

 

[timtofly]

So why isn't this in any of the real history books? You'd think that a nuclear war in Babylon would have been noticed and written about by every civilization that had even a slight bit of contact with Babylon. What do real physicists have to say about this claim?

I am still trying to figure out how the earth split apart without any one noticing.

There's no evidence of this in the Bible. There is evidence of rival gods, however. (1st commandment, for example.)

The 1st Command does not mention any rival gods. It is an example of my point though. There are plenty of gods. God did not want the Hebrews to follow them, because they are not God. God created them, why would they be rivals?

You are aware that 2 of those simply follow the first one's narrative? So that's hardly relevant to the question whether Abraham was a historical person. (Not that I mentioned that particular topic.)

I don't think that it was as simple as that.

Even in Civ a nuclear war in 2023 BC would be a bit hard to pull off.

If you started the game like any respectable evolutionist at 4.5 billion BC, you could have millions of nuclear wars by 2023 BC. Of course it may take more than a few years at current computer speeds to play the game.

 

[Arakhor]

If you started the game like any respectable evolutionist at 4.5 billion BC, you could have millions of nuclear wars by 2023 BC. Of course it may take more than a few years at current computer speeds to play the game.

We're playing Civilisation, not SimEarth. I'm sure you're aware of the difference.

 

[Agent327]

The 1st Command does not mention any rival gods. It is an example of my point though. There are plenty of gods. God did not want the Hebrews to follow them, because they are not God. God created them, why would they be rivals?

Actually, the 1st commandment very clearly mentions rival gods: 'Thou shalt have no other gods'. The whole commandment seems inspired by other gods taking precedence over Jahweh. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that these other gods were created by Jahweh; that literally makes no sense, nor is it in the Bible.

I don't think that it was as simple as that.

The refutation of your claim pretty much is. The only basis for Abraham is to be found in the Jewish Bible. (It's like saying 'I know somebody who saw it happen'. That's nothing more than hearsay. Evidence it is not.)

 

[El_Machinae]

The Abraham myth is totally lost in time. The Hebrews had already completely forgotten their history by the time the Abraham myths were compiled. We have no idea when the idea was invented.

 

[timtofly]

We're playing Civilisation, not SimEarth. I'm sure you're aware of the difference.

I thought we were talking about the ancient astronoughts that kept coming over and over again to populate the earth.

Actually, the 1st commandment very clearly mentions rival gods: 'Thou shalt have no other gods'. The whole commandment seems inspired by other gods taking precedence over Jahweh. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that these other gods were created by Jahweh; that literally makes no sense, nor is it in the Bible.



The refutation of your claim pretty much is. The only basis for Abraham is to be found in the Jewish Bible. (It's like saying 'I know somebody who saw it happen'. That's nothing more than hearsay. Evidence it is not.)

Just because it said other, does not mean rival. God was jealous, but not incompetent. The Egyptian gods got trampled not more than a month prior. Then we see that God left things mainly in the hands of Moses. It was the Hebrew's decision who to have as their God. Later at the Jordan, Joshua talked about the gods of other nations, and gave an ultimatum who they would choose. That was not a rival between gods, but people groups. It was the people who decided which gods would fight on their side. Even if there were gods, the gods did not make the decision who fights who.

The Bible never says when God created angels, but they are mentioned. The creation of humans on day six, is the only time God created beings that were perfect and male and female. This is the creation of gods. The only humans alive today come from Adam. The other beings are gods that have immortal bodies. I think that Adam was created at the same time, but he was specifically addressed in the narrative. What happened to all the other beings? It is assumed the rest went and populated the rest of the earth. If God put beings on earth why stop there? It is not out of question that it happened in other places in the universe.

The Bible is not the only text that mentions Abraham. You cannot prove that people in the past only had the Bible to read. I said it was not simple. You are the one claiming the Bible was their only source on Abraham.

 

[Arakhor]

I thought we were talking about the ancient astronoughts that kept coming over and over again to populate the earth.

Ah! Well, maybe then.

The Bible is not the only text that mentions Abraham. You cannot prove that people in the past only had the Bible to read. I said it was not simple. You are the one claiming the Bible was their only source on Abraham.

So, which other texts mention Abraham then? The Qur'an does not count.

 

[Berzerker]

Snow and ice are not the same thing. You won't find snow in space. Your idea of the asteroid belt being 'a debris trail' is, scientifically speaking, nonsense.

You'll have to complain to the inventor of the snow line, but why is it nonsense?

That's not really relevant. What we call solid ground basically floats on lower Earth layers. There's little reason why these plates wouldn't move. (And plate tectonics doesn't 'build and move continents', it's what continental movement is.)

Thats continental drift, plate tectonics is the process by which plates move and build landmasses. Before that process began water covered the world, aside from maybe an occasional volcano breaking the surface before the immense tides whittled it away there was no dry land. Thats why our oldest rock formed in water... our water is older than our rock. Actually much of our rock from back then is floating around in the asteroid belt and occasionally some of it returns to Earth.

The idea that Jupiter travelled to the asteroid belt and then back into its present exact orbit seems rather... far-fetched. To say the least. (If only for the sole reason that all planets seem to be moving in the same plane around the sun.)

According to the theory Jupiter was pulled inward as gas and dust slowed it down and then Saturn formed tugging it back. Its possible, but it is an attempt by the scientific community to explain how we got our water from the asteroid belt earlier than the late heavy bombardment.

That would be more accurate than what you first stated.

The solar wind deprived Mars of building material, how's that different from what I said?

Circular logic. (You are using 'the moon' to explain why 'the moon' exists. That literally makes no sense.)

You said major impacts dont leave debris trails, the Moon formed from a debris trail following a major impact... Well, according to the theory. But if the Earth was pushed toward the sun by a collision it wasn't around to sweep up the debris trail left behind. The asteroid belt is our debris trail, thats why we have so much in common with Vesta.

And the word firmament means...?

The hammered bracelet that divided the waters on the 2nd day

'Heaven' is not mentioned in Genesis. 'Heavens' is. And that's not synonymous with 'the sky', but with 'the firmament'. ('The sky', by the way, isn't visible, nor is it mentioned in Genesis. In fact, the sky is completely irrelevant to Genesis.)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-8.htm

Heaven is the firmament, the heavens is our sky and what we can see.

Not quite. You are ignoring the fact that earth means dry land. The earth is this planet. But the idea of a planet wasn't really known at the time of Genesis.

I'm the one who said the Earth means dry land in Genesis, not this planet. God did not make the waters in Gen 1:2, those waters covered a primordial world where "dry land" had not formed. A world in darkness, ie further away from the sun.

 

[Berzerker]

According to this website, and the earth's timeline, Abraham lived before Marduk. Marduk carried out a nuclear war in Babylon around 2023 BC, and the Enuma Elis was not compiled until 1500 BC. It cannot be a creation account for the earth, because the earth was formed 4.5 Billion BC. All it can be at the most is Marduk finally doing away with all the former "gods" and proclaiming himself as the chief ruler on earth.

Marduk was the Babylonian national god and why he is the star of their creation epic, Assur was the Assyrian hero whereas An/Anu or Enlil was the Sumerian creator.

The nuclear war or whatever it was destroyed the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah and a couple other cities/towns. It was part of a war in which Abraham participated, 5 kings vs 4 kings

 

[onejayhawk]

Marduk was the Babylonian national god and why he is the star of their creation epic, Assur was the Assyrian hero whereas An/Anu or Enlil was the Sumerian creator.

The nuclear war or whatever it was destroyed the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah and a couple other cities/towns. It was part of a war in which Abraham participated, 5 kings vs 4 kings

Technically, Abraham took on the winner.

The odd thing about that whole story is the King of Salem, Melchizedek. Abraham pays him 10% of the spoils, which is the source of tithing. It's the only mention of him in the OT but the capital was named after his city--Jerusalem = New Salem.

J

 

[Agent327]

The odd thing about that whole story is the King of Salem, Melchizedek. Abraham pays him 10% of the spoils, which is the source of tithing. It's the only mention of him in the OT but the capital was named after his city--Jerusalem = New Salem.

Actually, 10 % of the spoils is a pretty common division in antiquity. I'm not sure why that would relate to tithes though, since these are originally a religious voluntary contribution.

You'll have to complain to the inventor of the snow line, but why is it nonsense?

No snow. (As mentioned, you will find a snow line on alpine mountains - but not an 'ice line'.)

Thats continental drift, plate tectonics is the process by which plates move and build landmasses. Before that process began water covered the world, aside from maybe an occasional volcano breaking the surface before the immense tides whittled it away there was no dry land. Thats why our oldest rock formed in water... our water is older than our rock. Actually much of our rock from back then is floating around in the asteroid belt and occasionally some of it returns to Earth.

Continental drift results from plate tectonics. The two are pretty much interconnected. I'm not sure where you get the idea that 'water covered the world': there's literally no evidence whatsoever for that.

According to the theory Jupiter was pulled inward as gas and dust slowed it down and then Saturn formed tugging it back. Its possible, but it is an attempt by the scientific community to explain how we got our water from the asteroid belt earlier than the late heavy bombardment.

Interesting theory, but not very plausible.

The solar wind deprived Mars of building material, how's that different from what I said?

It's very different. Mars has no atmosphere (solar wind effect), Earth does (electro-magnetic field effect). I'm not quite sure how the solar wind would deprive Mars of 'building material'.

You said major impacts dont leave debris trails, the Moon formed from a debris trail following a major impact...

This you repeatedly claimed. I pointed out (repeatedly now) that a major impact on Earth would not leave a single debris trail. Debris would spark off into many directions from the impact, not in a single trail.

Well, according to the theory. But if the Earth was pushed toward the sun by a collision it wasn't around to sweep up the debris trail left behind. The asteroid belt is our debris trail, thats why we have so much in common with Vesta.

Once again, the asteroid belt can in no meaningful way be seen as a 'a debris trail'. Secondly, we don't have 'so much in common with Vesta': we have no clue of the composition of Vesta.

Heaven is the firmament, the heavens is our sky and what we can see.

'Heaven' is a concept completely absent from the OT. And the firmament equals whatever we can see from Earth's surface - that includes stars. It's not the same as 'sky' at all. You may keep your own personal definition, as long as you're aware of the incorrectness thereof.

God did not make the waters in Gen 1:2, those waters covered a primordial world where "dry land" had not formed. A world in darkness, ie further away from the sun.

No, darkness means there wasn't a sun yet. Which conforms with God creating light in the darkness.

Just because it said other, does not mean rival. God was jealous, but not incompetent. The Egyptian gods got trampled not more than a month prior.

So not only are there other gods, but also gods that needed to be 'trampled'. I don't quite see how more threatened a jealous God can feel, really.

The Bible never says when God created angels, but they are mentioned. The creation of humans on day six, is the only time God created beings that were perfect and male and female. This is the creation of gods.

Humans are neither perfect (they get expelled in the next verses) nor are they gods. Ergo, nowhere does it say in the Bible that God created gods. Not only that but these other gods (who weren't created by God) seem to threaten him to the point of a commandment saying there should be no other gods before him.

The Bible is not the only text that mentions Abraham.

No, but it is the earliest. Later texts mention it based on the Bible. That means these later texts cannot be counted as a source, but only the Bible. (And that still doesn't make Abraham a historical person.)

 

[onejayhawk]

Actually, 10 % of the spoils is a pretty common division in antiquity. I'm not sure why that would relate to tithes though, since these are originally a religious voluntary contribution.

That seems to be the origin of the non-voluntary religious tithe. Salem was not a participant of either battle. The only reason that a tenth would be given is religious. He was a priest.

J

 

[Berzerker]

No snow. (As mentioned, you will find a snow line on alpine mountains - but not an 'ice line'.)

It was scientists who coined the term snow line for the distance from the sun water vapor condenses, complain to them. Now why is the asteroid belt as a debris trail scientifically nonsensical?

Continental drift results from plate tectonics. The two are pretty much interconnected. I'm not sure where you get the idea that 'water covered the world': there's literally no evidence whatsoever for that.

Our oldest rock formed in water and before plate tectonics there was no process by which continents could be built.

Interesting theory, but not very plausible.

Why?

It's very different. Mars has no atmosphere (solar wind effect), Earth does (electro-magnetic field effect). I'm not quite sure how the solar wind would deprive Mars of 'building material'.

Before and during the formation of Mars the solar wind was blowing volatiles out toward the asteroid belt, that process deprived Mars of material.

This you repeatedly claimed. I pointed out (repeatedly now) that a major impact on Earth would not leave a single debris trail. Debris would spark off into many directions from the impact, not in a single trail.

I didn't say a collision would cause 1 debris trail

Once again, the asteroid belt can in no meaningful way be seen as a 'a debris trail'.

Why?

Secondly, we don't have 'so much in common with Vesta': we have no clue of the composition of Vesta.

Yes we do, Vesta has produced debris trails from impacts resulting in meteorites striking Earth.

'Heaven' is a concept completely absent from the OT.

What did God name the firmament?

And the firmament equals whatever we can see from Earth's surface - that includes stars. It's not the same as 'sky' at all. You may keep your own personal definition, as long as you're aware of the incorrectness thereof.

The firmament was placed in the midst of the waters before the Earth's surface appeared.

No, darkness means there wasn't a sun yet. Which conforms with God creating light in the darkness.

It means the primordial Earth (biblical tehom) was further from the sun and was given a new orbit closer to the sun, thats why we had night and day before Earth had a sky.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The nuclear war or whatever it was destroyed the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah and a couple other cities/towns. It was part of a war in which Abraham participated, 5 kings vs 4 kings

Sometimes a fire is just a fire, possibly resulting from earthquake or something else that knocked over a lamp, which spilled onto something flammable...

If there had been a nuclear war that recently, we'd have known about it.

 

[Berzerker]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost_line_(astrophysics)

In astronomy or planetary science, the frost line, also known as the snow line or ice line, is the particular distance in the solar nebula from the central protostar where it is cold enough for volatile compounds such as water, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide to condense into solid ice grains.

and now researchers think maybe asteroid belts are common around stars as gas giants beyond them wont allow the formation of a planet closer in.

why?

I think they're wrong, it takes a collision to produce an asteroid belt and ours was part of this planet. Why would Jupiter form before a planet twice as close to the sun? They think Saturn formed after Jupiter and its twice as far. And these gas giants grew large over time, they didn't start out as huge monsters - if they have rocky cores they're small.

 

[Berzerker]

Sometimes a fire is just a fire, possibly resulting from earthquake or something else that knocked over a lamp, which spilled onto something flammable...

If there had been a nuclear war that recently, we'd have known about it.

Thats 4,000 years ago... Lot's wife was turned to a pillar of salt. But the Mesopotamian word for salt also means vapor, the salt marshes of Sumer produced vapor.

This story is Abrahamic in origin, its possible the later biblical authors saw the pillars of salt lining the Dead Sea and used that meaning rather than telling us she was vaporized...

People can be vaporized, by nukes. Some researchers believe it might have been an airburst and intense meteor shower, but the Bible suggests the cataclysm could have been delayed and prevented so it was intentional.

 

[Arakhor]

"The Bible suggests... so it was intentional." That's particularly woolly reasoning right there.

 

[Agent327]

It was scientists who coined the term snow line for the distance from the sun water vapor condenses, complain to them. Now why is the asteroid belt as a debris trail scientifically nonsensical?

First, calling something a snow line when there's no snow is somewhat off. Frost line would be far more accurate. Second, the asteroid belt is not the result of some cosmic collision producing a debris trail. I'm not even sure why you would ask that, as it can easily be looked up.

Our oldest rock formed in water and before plate tectonics there was no process by which continents could be built.

I am quite curious where you get such information from. I'm aware that marine fossils have been found up on the Himalayas; this merely means that what is now the Himalayas originally was seabed. The Himalayas, however, hardly contain our 'oldest rock'.

The statement 'before plate tectonics there was no process by which continents could be built' seems somewhat redundant, seeing as plate tectonics is what produces continents to break, move, and collide.

Why?

Simply because there is nothing off with Mars orbit around the sun; it's perfectly in plane with the other planets. In synch, so to speak. So one may theorize that Mars traveled back and forth through the solar system, but there's no evidence of this.

Before and during the formation of Mars the solar wind was blowing volatiles out toward the asteroid belt, that process deprived Mars of material.

Volatile material, not 'building material'.

I didn't say a collision would cause 1 debris trail

While that may be literally correct, you at least suggested it.

Why?

Because it isn't one. One may theorize it originates from some debris trail, but it would be more probable that the asteroid belt are simply left overs from the planetary formation process. For the entire asteroid belt to be a debris trail we would need a giant collision, resulting in debris in the outer limits of the solar system. There's nothing against theorizing about that, but theory is not explanation.

Yes we do, Vesta has produced debris trails from impacts resulting in meteorites striking Earth.

This is theorization, not fact.

What did God name the firmament?

He didn't. God is not the author of Genesis. Or any other Bible book.

The firmament was placed in the midst of the waters before the Earth's surface appeared.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

It means the primordial Earth (biblical tehom) was further from the sun and was given a new orbit closer to the sun, thats why we had night and day before Earth had a sky.

No, it doesn't. And saying 'we had night and day before Earth had a sky' is neither here nor there. 'We' didn't have night and day, because 'we' weren't there. Earth had a night-day cycle, irrespective if there was an atmosphere; the two aren't linked in any way.