Incentives under communism?

[Crezth]

No the Maori weren't enslaved as such. Some were used as convict labour 19th century. So we're whites and they got released.

The tribes enslaved other Maori pre Colonial days. British stamped it out and some tribes allied with them so they didn't get preyed on by other Maori.
Iwi done here was here to avoid the war up north.

One of the more well known examples.

Moriori genocide - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And now we find the height of capitalist apologia: that the British did not enslave the Maori, and actually saved them from slavery. Yeah, the lost cause types in the US run a similar line where they argue that it was actually Other Africans that sold the slaves to the triangle trade, and really had nothing to do with enormous appetite or demand for slave labor.

In fact the treaty of Waitangi in 1840 did not actually end slavery in New Zealand, it merely changed the conditions under which it was allowed to occur, and formalized the status of Maori slave owners as well as their slaves as British citizens. Slaves continued to be kept for multiple decades and after the passing of the treaty, the practice was no longer criticized. Europeans also supported it implicitly by acknowledging the slavery and making the choice to "hire" slaves from slave-owners. They did so on a massive scale, ensuring the practice could survive the odd and tumultuous times that allowed it to take root during the Musket Wars. Hence did slave labor continue to the profit of the European colonists, keen as they were for cheap labor. In the end, the pretext of the treaty merely allowed the colonizers to steal all of the Maori's land, and so they did. The Maori were then second-class citizens within the racial hierarchy of New Zealand society. To this day, Maori are still impoverished and underserved. Capitalism, democracy, liberalism - all at its finest.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well the discussion diverted from incentives all I said lots of societies have practiced slavery and dlaves often got used to do tge drudge work.

The incentive was do this or die. Other societies have xaste system or whatever.

This is basically fact draw your own conclusions. May not fit the capitalism equals slavery narrative since pre capitalist societies used slavery along with communust societies.

Drudge works still going to have to be done in modern societies what that drudge work is and how you get someone fo do it is the great question.

Capitalism here you get paid for it. Some pays surprisingly good some pays badly and I'm not doing it ill go work at McDonalds instead.

 

[Gorbles]

And now we find the height of capitalist apologia: that the British did not enslave the Maori, and actually saved them from slavery. Yeah, the lost cause types in the US run a similar line where they argue that it was actually Other Africans that sold the slaves to the triangle trade, and really had nothing to do with enormous appetite or demand for slave labor.

In fact the treaty of Waitangi in 1840 did not actually end slavery in New Zealand, it merely changed the conditions under which it was allowed to occur, and formalized the status of Maori slave owners as well as their slaves as British citizens. Slaves continued to be kept for multiple decades and after the passing of the treaty, the practice was no longer criticized. Europeans also supported it implicitly by acknowledging the slavery and making the choice to "hire" slaves from slave-owners. They did so on a massive scale, ensuring the process could survive the odd and tumultuous times that allowed it to take root during the Musket Wars. Hence did slave labor continue to the profit of the European colonists, keen as they were for cheap labor. In the end, the pretext of the treaty merely allowed the colonizers to steal all of the Maori's land, and so they did. The Maori were then second-class citizens within the racial hierarchy of New Zealand society. To this day, Maori are still impoverished and underserved. Capitalism, democracy, liberalism - all at its finest.

Listen, I'm not saying it'd solve inequality, but a penny everytime somebody linked to the technical abolition of slavery (in countries around the world) on Wikipedia would really help a bunch of folks.

 

[Zardnaar]

And now we find the height of capitalist apologia: that the British did not enslave the Maori, and actually saved them from slavery. Yeah, the lost cause types in the US run a similar line where they argue that it was actually Other Africans that sold the slaves to the triangle trade, and really had nothing to do with enormous appetite or demand for slave labor.

In fact the treaty of Waitangi in 1840 did not actually end slavery in New Zealand, it merely changed the conditions under which it was allowed to occur, and formalized the status of Maori slave owners as well as their slaves as British citizens. Slaves continued to be kept for multiple decades and after the passing of the treaty, the practice was no longer criticized. Europeans also supported it implicitly by acknowledging the slavery and making the choice to "hire" slaves from slave-owners. They did so on a massive scale, ensuring the practice could survive the odd and tumultuous times that allowed it to take root during the Musket Wars. Hence did slave labor continue to the profit of the European colonists, keen as they were for cheap labor. In the end, the pretext of the treaty merely allowed the colonizers to steal all of the Maori's land, and so they did. The Maori were then second-class citizens within the racial hierarchy of New Zealand society. To this day, Maori are still impoverished and underserved. Capitalism, democracy, liberalism - all at its finest.

Not what I said at all. Maori were not slaves, slavery existed pre colonization.

A relative handful of Maori got the 19th century penal system experience. They were PoWs in the modern sense.

Colonial past isn't glorious not defending it. We're several decades ahead of the anglosphere when it comes to dealing with its effects in the here and now

 

[Zardnaar]

Listen, I'm not saying it'd solve inequality, but a penny everytime somebody linked to the technical abolition of slavery (in countries around the world) on Wikipedia would really help a bunch of folks.

More dammed if you do damned if you don't.
Britain played a huge role in stamping out the slave trade. They were also imperialists both can ve true.

They also failed at eradicating slavery.

It's also similar if the west intervenes to stop ethnic cleanising eg Balkans/Kosovo.

If they do nothing they tolerate said genocide if they intervene they're imperialists. There's no world police as such and sometimes direct intervention is required and probably won't happen yet somehow its the west's fault not the UN, people doing the war crimes or authoritarian regimes who may or may not be involved or likewise do nothing.

 

[Crezth]

Not what I said at all. Maori were not slaves, slavery existed pre colonization.

A relative handful of Maori got the 19th century penal system experience. They were PoWs in the modern sense.

Colonial past isn't glorious not defending it. We're several decades ahead of the anglosphere when it comes to dealing with its effects in the here and now

You are just plain wrong. There's not much evidence of Maori slavery before the Musket Wars. The potato was introduced to New Zealand in 1769. There were trade posts and settlements popping up meanwhile. So in many ways the problem was created by colonization to begin with.

Much more than a "relative handful" were purchased for use from their masters. The Maori Wars were over land ownership and you punished the losers by forcing them to work for you forever. That really just sounds like bog standard British colonialism to me. Hey, America did it too.

Colonial past isn't glorious and it's also still very much with you. I wouldn't be so eager to pat myself on the back for being "decades ahead" of the Anglosphere when there's nothing really different about it except the numbers of people involved and where it's happening.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm calling out what Zardnaar (and incidentally the article he linked) are doing. The article is simply incorrect that Mokai is a form of chattel slavery, as evidenced by facts the article itself adduces, such as marriages between the "slaves" and the elite chiefs. This is similar to bondage on the North American continent, where war captives were initially enslaved but could in time become full members of the community that had captured them, which is obviously very different from chattel slavery where the enslaved person is regarded as a legal object, and yet again from racialized chattel slavery where racial caste operates as an additional barrier to a person being seen and treated fully as a member of the community.
As @Crezth notes it was in fact the greatly vaunted British "respect for private property" that created the conditions for chattel slavery among the Maori...

 

[Gorbles]

More dammed if you do damned if you don't.
Britain played a huge role in stamping out the slave trade. They were also imperialists both can ve true.

They also failed at eradicating slavery.

It's also similar if the west intervenes to stop ethnic cleanising eg Balkans/Kosovo.

If they do nothing they tolerate said genocide if they intervene they're imperialists. There's no world police as such and sometimes direct intervention is required and probably won't happen yet somehow its the west's fault not the UN, people doing the war crimes or authoritarian regimes who may or may not be involved or likewise do nothing.

Let's recap what you're saying here:

• "Britain played a huge role in stamping the slave trade". Technically true, but Britain (and other countries) had reasons for backing abolition at the time.
• "Britain were / are imperialists". Also true. Technically, literally, in every sense of the term.
• "It's similar to intervening in ethnic cleansing". No, it's not. Or rather, if you want to talk about the Balkans, talk about the Balkans. They're not an example. They're a specific, contextual discussion.
• "If they do nothing they're bad, if they intervene they're bad". Also no. A dubious binary.

I'm not an isolationist, so I'm not going to say "intervention is never required", but I am going to say that there are absolutely countries that have appointed themselves "world police".

Regardless, you want to have your cake and eat it. Proverbially. I don't even know where the proverb comes from, why have a cake if you don't want to eat it, but anyway. The point is this is all muddying the waters (as gay_Aleks has already said).

Technically abolishing slavery didn't end slavery. You even say something similar. Therefore, it wasn't a success. They didn't end it.

Remind me again. Who's judging regimes on the merits of their successes and failures? Can you tell me?

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm calling out what Zardnaar (and incidentally the article he linked) are doing. The article is simply incorrect that Mokai is a form of chattel slavery, as evidenced by facts the article itself adduces, such as marriages between the "slaves" and the elite chiefs. This is similar to bondage on the North American continent, where war captives were initially enslaved but could in time become full members of the community that had captured them, which is obviously very different from chattel slavery where the enslaved person is regarded as a legal object, and yet again from racialized chattel slavery where racial caste operates as an additional barrier to a person being seen and treated fully as a member of the community.
As @Crezth notes it was in fact the greatly vaunted British "respect for private property" that created the conditions for chattel slavery among the Maori...

Slavery pretty much died out by the 1850s less than 20 years after treaty was signed.

I also included a link to what happened to the Moiriori.

The iwi that encountered Abel Tasman did not survive until captain cooks arrival. They were wiped out in tribal warfare.

Literally up the road from me theres the remains of an old PA (hill fort) predating European arrival in the region.

Tribal warfare was a thing, Pa's function much like a castle. One of my D&D players is a Maori his iwi sided with the British not all tribes signed the treaty. Nor all rides fought the British, some sided with them.

It's not soblack and white and trying to insert modern ideology into it is stupid.

 

[Crezth]

It's not soblack and white and trying to insert modern ideology into it is stupid.

How do you know we're inserting modern ideology and not contemporary ideology?

 

[Zardnaar]

Let's recap what you're saying here:

• "Britain played a huge role in stamping the slave trade". Technically true, but Britain (and other countries) had reasons for backing abolition at the time.
• "Britain were / are imperialists". Also true. Technically, literally, in every sense of the term.
• "It's similar to intervening in ethnic cleansing". No, it's not. Or rather, if you want to talk about the Balkans, talk about the Balkans. They're not an example. They're a specific, contextual discussion.
• "If they do nothing they're bad, if they intervene they're bad". Also no. A dubious binary.

I'm not an isolationist, so I'm not going to say "intervention is never required", but I am going to say that there are absolutely countries that have appointed themselves "world police".

Regardless, you want to have your cake and eat it. Proverbially. I don't even know where the proverb comes from, why have a cake if you don't want to eat it, but anyway. The point is this is all muddying the waters (as gay_Aleks has already said).

Technically abolishing slavery didn't end slavery. You even say something similar. Therefore, it wasn't a success. They didn't end it.

Remind me again. Who's judging regimes on the merits of their successes and failures? Can you tell me?

It was an observation. The British were a big factor in ending the slave trade they weren't the only ones.

Wiping out slavery is more accurate to say wiping out large scale slavery and pushing it underground.

NZ recently had its first conviction on it.

 

[Gorbles]

It was an observation. The British were a big factor in ending the slave trade they weren't the only ones.

Wiping out slavery is more accurate to say wiping out large scale slavery and pushing it underground.

Again, technically true.

Just like making a happy society is "technically true" by repressing your citizens with force. "technically true" is the best kind of true, unless it's something you don't want, in which case it's only technically true. It's all semantics, right?

The same thing that's been going on all the while. "the thing I can like do X, but the thing I don't like can't".

 

[Zardnaar]

Again, technically true.

Just like making a happy society is "technically true" by repressing your citizens with force. "technically true" is the best kind of true, unless it's something you don't want, in which case it's only technically true. It's all semantics, right?

The same thing that's been going on all the while. "the thing I can like do X, but the thing I don't like can't".

Main point was slavery isn't exclusive to capitalism. Neither is imperialism.

This is not a justification for European imperialism (or anyone elses). Someone has to do the drudge work historically a lot of cultures gave resorted to slavery.

Why it's not black and white here for example (I've been very consistent about local solutions for local problems).

Modern progressive yadda yadda. Here one can get invited to a Marae. I went in the 90s as part of school or scouting sent tge night there. Also spent a couple of days at Kohanga Reo (Maori school/daycare).

In American style discourse online it's poor PoC being exploited by evil whites. Not saying that doesn't happen it does.

You get over here. Our PM Helen Clark got invited to a Marae (meeting house). That particular Marae women are not allowed to speak (they can sit in the audience). They compromised and made an exception for her as PM. However not all members of the tribe agreed and threatened to disrupt the speech. Helen Clark refused to go in the end and went elsewhere. Their house their rules I suppose but it clashed with her feminist values.

Marae I went to had no such restriction. Maori are not monolithic. How do you reconcile that with American style online discourse? Do you impose our cultural values on the Maori or respect their cultural values on the Marae? The powhiri (welcome) would gave also been an issue.

Another example. Labour passed civil unions but didn't have the numbers for gay marriage early 2000's. The Polynesian caucus vetoed it as it was at odds with their cultural beliefs. Who's right or wrong in that scenario the PoC or Labour liberals? Once again do we impose our culture on them?

Gay marriage ended up getting passed by National (center right) because tgey had the numbers to do it.

1st scenario my guess are their house their castle Helen Clark was right not to go. They xan do what they ike do xan she.

2nd scenario took a bit longer (a decade)

Thats what I mean when I say it's not so black or white here in USA terms. It's more brown and white here and the brown has real political power.

It's a clash of two cultures and we're muddling along trying to make the best of it, making mistakes a long the way but it seems t be improving.

American style BS isn't that applicable here in some cases. We have the traditional left and right factions, Maori, Polynesians and more recently Asians as well as the 3 main groups.

Its not perfect relative to USA and UK seems we're doing something right. The racial stuff will probably be solved between the bed sheets long term (interracial marriage very common here predating 1840 Treaty). There was no Loving vs Virginia equivalent here.

 

[Gorbles]

Someone has to do the drudge work historically a lot of cultures gave resorted to slavery.

Yes, we've been over this before. Apparently, "making drudgery less required" and "paying what remains a good wage" are magical pie-in-the-sky ideas that'll never work.

In American style discourse online it's poor PoC being exploited by evil whites. Not saying that doesn't happen it does.

So what are you saying? Because the first half seems like mockery, but in the second half you're saying it's true?

Marae I went to had no such restriction. Maori are not monolithic. How do you reconcile that with American style online discourse?

I would say you don't know much about online discourse (outside of this forum). To put it in simple words: it's not monolithic.

Another example. Labour passed civil unions but didn't have the numbers for gay marriage early 2000's. The Polynesian caucus vetoed it as it was at odds with their cultural beliefs. Who's right or wrong in that scenario the PoC or Labour liberals? Once again do we impose our culture on them?

Minorities don't magically remain right for opposing LGBTQ rights. It's not the gotcha you think it is.

Thats what I mean when I say it's not so black or white here in USA terms.

I don't live in the US.

It's more brown and white here and the brown has real political power.

Hah, sure buddy.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, we've been over this before. Apparently, "making drudgery less required" and "paying what remains a good wage" are magical pie-in-the-sky ideas that'll never work.

So what are you saying? Because the first half seems like mockery, but in the second half you're saying it's true?

I would say you don't know much about online discourse (outside of this forum). To put it in simple words: it's not monolithic.

Minorities don't magically remain right for opposing LGBTQ rights. It's not the gotcha you think it is.

I don't live in the US.

Hah, sure buddy.

Well NZ demographics in parliment match the overall population. Maori MP will hold balance of power it seems in next parliament.

 

[Gorbles]

Well NZ demographics in parliment match the overall population. Maori MP will hold balance of power it seems in next parliament.

Yes, and?

We were talking about slavery and imperialism. Why are we back to NZ political demographics (for the millionth time or so)? Don't you already have a thread for that?

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, and?

We were talking about slavery and imperialism. Why are we back to NZ political demographics (for the millionth time or so)? Don't you already have a thread for that?

Well I mentioned about how slavery is being used for drudge work and the gotchas turned into slavery in NZ.

Kinda funny watching tbh no wonder UK and USA are so messed up.

Very big differences here and if obecan cherry pick USA why not NZ which is xapitalist or Norway or Sweden.

Not disagreeing USA gas massive problems buy it's tgat incentive to do said drudge work that no one's really going to willingly choose.

Either it's not gonna get done, you pay some or force/duress someone. Even you said they should be paid more and I agree with that.

Some drudge work here pays similar to a doctor for example.

 

[Crezth]

Jesus Christ now we’re into ranting about how it’s the Maori who are the really anti-feminist ones. Well at this rate we should witness a double event in seven days.

 

[Hygro]

I agree we can differentiate degrees of slavery. We can also differentiate other degrees of other oppression.

 

[Crezth]

Yes, and?

We were talking about slavery and imperialism. Why are we back to NZ political demographics (for the millionth time or so)? Don't you already have a thread for that?

Isn’t every thread a good thread for racist conspiracy theories?