Incentives under communism?

[Zardnaar]

Hitler looks like the "sane option" to you because you're a fascist sympathizer. For me the question is not some kind of gotcha with an obvious answer, but simply a question of which reason I'd prefer to be murdered for.

In any case, what is this question supposed to prove, exactly?

Unless you're Jewish I would say you're a lot safer in Hitlers regime than Pol Pots. That doesn't make one a Nazi sympathizer. In Hitlers regime you gave the choice of being apolitical.

You've got a crap choice. Some people in the Baltics or Ukraine preferred the Nazis over Stalin for somewhat obvious reasons.

Whole point of the thread is what incentive do you have under communusm. These regimes always struggle to feed themselves because they go after the farmers with predictable results.

Seems I'm the only one here wh has worked on a farm in any significant capacity. If anyone else has feel free to speak up.

After the revolution where do you see your position? Basically what do you want to do? Sit around in a city studying political philosophy?

Why should younger Zard bust his ass in the field for you to that? On contract picking I could get around double the minimum wage back then it was a better idea than say McDonald's. I did McDonalds after the orchards and harvesting. Warm kitchen, not much in the way of heavy lifting worse places to be in winter.

So basically you need people like me to go out and do the work to feed you. I'm willing to do that but not for equal pay for you to do some cushy desk job.

Otherwise I'm gonna choose to do that cushy desk job as well. Or some other physical job that's not reliant on the weather and doesn't involve being outside in the frost and mid summer heat.

So after the revolution how are you, Gorbles, Crezth planning on eating? Can't eat political theory or the dialetic.

Young Zards not willing to feed you indirectly without some incentive. Old Zards not really physically capable of some of that work anymore. I could still harvest apples probably no where near my old speed though. What do you want to do for a crust of bread for a living post revolution?

Without forcing young me to do the work why should I feed you vs going to the city myself? Are you willing to go work the fields yourself.

Theoretically under communism I woukd own part of the farm? How does that work ? They're worth about 7 million dollars here for a basis obe. 5 workers are we worth 1.2 million each?

What about service jobs. The rubbish collector or street sweeper drives a truck. They're not producing anything as such. So young Zard working the fields owns art of the farm street sweeper owns part of his job that produces nothing?

 

[Crezth]

Yes, the US is far from perfect, but if I type "eff Biden, double eff the Constitution!" I'm not worried about the FBI breaking down my door and dragging me to prison.

Yeah, we're worried about gun-toting Rambos breaking down our school doors and blasting kids with their customized extended-mag hair-trigger AR15 with the laser sight and reflex scope.

 

[Ajidica]

Sounds like a whole lotta this going on.

Spoiler :

 

[NinjaCow64]

The other option is that I hate the Nazis a lot more than you and Zardnaar do, which, is my point. Another point I make is that to equate the crimes of Stalin and Hitler requires either making up a lot of crimes to blame on Stalin or denying the reality of the Holocaust, one or the other. Or both I guess.

Saying “well the Soviets were just as bad (or even worse) than the Nazis” is widely considered to be a form of Holocaust revisionism.

 

[Sarin]

Hitler looks like the "sane option" to you because you're a fascist sympathizer. For me the question is not some kind of gotcha with an obvious answer, but simply a question of which reason I'd prefer to be murdered for.

In any case, what is this question supposed to prove, exactly?

What it is supposed to prove is simple. It can always be worse. I don't think anyone here argued that the status quo is the best. But that doesn't mean that any alternative is preferable. Just because an alternative is being called anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and promises you "utopia", doesn't mena that it's actually better. You should first critically examine it whether it can actually deliver, or if it's just a bait.

Communism, which is a focus of this particular thread, has neither good track record or actual possible way of delivering the promise.

 

[NinjaCow64]

And you totally ignore that imperialism and colonialism, which were the causes of British rule with all it brought, are neither intrinsic nor exclusive to capitalism.

Maybe not exclusive but its bloody intrinsic to capitalism.

The incredible profits made by capitalism would not be possible without exploiting the third world. The richest man in the world made his money off of bloody South African emerald mines for Pete’s sake!

 

[Crezth]

Without forcing young me to do the work why should I feed you vs going to the city myself?

Is this an argument for slavery?

 

[Zardnaar]

Saying “well the Soviets were just as bad (or even worse) than the Nazis” is widely considered to be a form of Holocaust revisionism.

Not denying the holocaust or revising it. I'm not Hewish though Pol Pots regime who woukd actively want to murder ne vs Hitlers regime that doesn't.

I wouldn't judge a Jewish person picking Sralin over Hitler makes perfect sense to me.

Modern example is capitalist USA of Chiba/North Korea. Nothing stopping you going to live in those regimes.

Not for the record I woukd pick say Brezhnev era USSR over Hitlers regime. There's a range of crappy regimes to live under I'm picking least awful for me. Pol Pots and Maos regime are at the bottom of said list Hitlers is above them and Stalins, below Fidels Cuba or later USSR.

 

[NinjaCow64]

The issue with existing communist states is civil rights, actually the absence of civil rights. Yes, the US is far from perfect, but if I type "eff Biden, double eff the Constitution!" I'm not worried about the FBI breaking down my door and dragging me to prison.

You live in America, a country where the police will randomly murder someone because they are black or where some evil person will kill someone for being visibly queer.

 

[Farm Boy]

The other option is that I hate the Nazis a lot more than you and Zardnaar do, which, is my point. Another point I make is that to equate the crimes of Stalin and Hitler requires either making up a lot of crimes to blame on Stalin or denying the reality of the Holocaust, one or the other. Or both I guess.

Counterrevolutionarylol.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Not denying the holocaust or revising it.

No you are just being extremely crass and I’d like to ask you to stop.

 

[Zardnaar]

Is this an argument for slavery?

Nope but how do you motivate me to feed you. I assume you're not that familiar with agricultural work?

Same question what do you want to do after the revolution? I'm guessing it's not farm work.

You're reliant on a young Zard or someone like me who's willing to do the work. I expect money or sone other form of incentive eg a nice house to do that work.

I'm not doing that work if you get same house as me shuffling paper at university or working for the party. You have to give me some incentive if you want to eat or or the land yourself or enslave me.

That's your 3 options. Why woukd I work the land to feed you when there's easier jobs for similar incentives.

 

[Zardnaar]

No you are just being extremely crass and I’d like to ask you to stop.

It's you lot who keep saying Hitlers regime is the worst. I'm not claiming it's good but the worst regime of the 20th century essentially made people work the fields and killed 1/3rd the population doing it.

Same question to you then. You need a young zard or people like me to essentially eat. Are you gonna work the fields.

What incentive do I have to do it under communism?

Crass this us the whole point of tge thread. You're a self identifying Communist but haven't really thought about the most basic element of any society.

Are you willing and able to do the drudge work yourself? Someone has to do it. If not who does do it and why?

Why woukd young Zard go work the field while Crezth, Girbles, Lexicus and yourself xall me a fascist sympathizer for picking a regine less likely to murder me?

None of you seem to have any idea what's involved in harvesting said food none of you have indicated you're willing to do it, none of you have indicated what you want to do if you had you're communist revolution.

So do you enslave young Zard, do the work yourself or somehow convince some else to do it so you personally can eat?

As I said younger me was capable of doing the work I did 3 years on market garden and 2 seasons of orchard work.

Why should I feed you?

 

[NinjaCow64]

This thread has devolved into bad arguments and historical revisionism.

The fact of the matter is that even under the comical estimates produced by dumb books like the Black Book of Communism, Capitalism kills more people every ~15 years than Communism has in its entire history. Ergo, Communism is the better system.

I invite the Capitalists to cope, seethe, ect.

 

[Gorbles]

You're here defending the system that spawned Lenin's Soviet Union, Mao's China and others.

Nope.

And you totally ignore that imperialism and colonialism, which were the causes of British rule with all it brought, are neither intrinsic nor exclusive to capitalism.

Also nope.

However, the corruption, oppression and mismanagement that killed so many people ARE intrinsic aspects of any attempted socialism or communism based on Marx.

Nope for a third time.

But you just can't imagine that people disagree with you for that reason.

And wrong on all four counts

Socialism isn't the boogeyman you've convinced yourself it is. Imperialism isn't intrinsic to capitalism, but the British were solidly capitalist at the same time (there's a fair bit of interplay, mind you). And people are quite obviously disagreeing with me, and I've been fine with a lot of it.

You can be done with me if you want - I predicted way back when we started that nothing I said would change your mind. And look where we are!

 

[NinjaCow64]

It's you lot who keep saying Hitlers reg8me is the worst. I'm not claiming it's good but the worst regime of the 20th century essentially made people work the fields and killed 1/3rd the population doing it.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Imperialism isn't intrinstic to capitalism

Going to politely disagree with you on that one

 

[Zardnaar]

Not what I said. I have a degree Pol Pots regime liked murdering people with degrees.

Personally I'm safer under Hitlers regime and I'm safer under Brezhnev than Hitler.

 

[Gorbles]

Going to politely disagree with you on that one

I think for me it's because capitalism can manifest in a variety of ways - there are examples of it back into the Middle Ages, when we were mostly still getting conquered vs. doing the conquering (so much. Crusades and the general inbreeding of most of Europe's monarchies makes this a Very Complicated Topic that I haven't done reading on in a long while). Capitalism definitely propagates through imperialism, but it's capable of doing so in different ways as well.

Personally I'm safer under Hitlers regime and I'm safer under Brezhnev than Hitler.

Of course you are, you nice little informant

(you're the one who came out with the bizarre nonsense of being apolitical in a genocidal police state, not me)

 

[NinjaCow64]

Of course you are, you nice little informant

Yeah that’s what you’re saying at the end of the day Zardnaar, you would be safe under Hitler because you’d be a good little collaborator and wouldn’t rock the boat when Hitler sent your neighbours to the camps.

Disgusting.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J