Incentives under communism?

[Ajidica]

Communusts fired the first shots iirc. Can't really complain when people you want to murder kill you first.

Must we bicker and argue about who killed who?

 

[REDY]

Putin is fervently anti-Communist. He literally helped dissolve the USSR. Nobody in this thread likes how Russia is run currently.

He's an insult to every genuine anticommunist.

He was communist party member and KGB member.
He said that he was not member because necessity but he loves communist ideas. https://www.interfax.ru/russia/491445
How he helped dissolve the USSR? He called that as greatest geopolitical catastrophe.

 

[NinjaCow64]

He was communist party member and KGB member.

Was.

He literally said that he was not member because necessity but because he loves communist ideas. https://www.interfax.ru/russia/491445

I can’t read Russian so I had to rely on Google translate but like the gist of it seems like “I think Communist ideals are nice but they don’t work in reality”. If that makes you an non-genuine anti-Communist then lots of fervent anti-Communists I know are no longer such, lol.

How he helped dissolve the USSR? He called that as greatest geopolitical catastrophe.

The guy worked for Boris Yeltsin, one of the two guys most responsible for the dissolution.

He has described communism as "a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization". He criticised Lenin in his speech justifying the invasion of Ukraine, saying Lenin “invented Ukraine”.

I think it is very silly to say Putin is a Communist.

 

[Remorseless1]

I think if you want to talk about Xi you could make a thread about him?

Dude I lived in China. I've also lived in America. I'm telling you you're wrong. I've been to protests here in America where protesters were disappeared into armored vans by cops dressed entirely in black. I've watched a peaceful gathering be told at 4:02 PM that curfew was 2 minutes ago and then tear gas started getting sprayed everywhere. You're not going to convince me just because you love your overlords a lot!

In fact lots of people criticize Xi. They literally can't put everyone in jail. And compared to America, on a per-capita basis? They don't even come close.

Nice deflection. Trump voter?

The Uyghurs (which you failed to address) are being imprisoned, assaulted, and humiliated because they are Muslim, and thus threaten the rule of the Chinese Communist Party and, more importantly, Xi Jiang's power. There are many other Chinese citizens who are in prison due to their politics. The CCP also reneged on the agreement to not seize the city for the PRC. The first thing the PRC was to eliminate civil rights and the city's democratic system of governance.

But the one part of Hong Kong the PRC did not touch was its powerhouse CAPITALIST economy. No changes to replace oligarchs with workers democraticly decided how to run their banks and factories; instead, the PRC government now holds veto power over the economy.

Sounds more like a colonizer policy than a communist policy.

 

[Remorseless1]

Must we bicker and argue about who killed who?

I love that movie, loved Python. Thanks for the laugh!

 

[REDY]

I can’t read Russian so I had to rely on Google translate but like the gist of it seems like “I think Communist ideals are nice but they don’t work in reality”. If that makes you an non-genuine anti-Communist then lots of fervent anti-Communists I know are no longer such, lol.

"But the practical realization of these wonderful ideas in our country was far from what the Utopian socialists set out. Our country was not like the City of the Sun," the Russian head of state explained.
He recalled that everyone accused the tsarist regime of repression, but the construction of the Soviet state began with mass repression.

Very euphemistic. I mean, he refers to millions of dead. And btw, Lenin is still on the square.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Birdjaguar What makes an arbitrary “Forever Red” state in your country more democratic than China? I know that felons are disenfranchised in most states in your country and considering how many people end up in prison (quite unfairly I might add) in the United States this leads to a lot of people being disenfranchised. This particularly targets African American voters, along with other more targeted measures of voter suppression and voter mitigation (id laws, gerrymandering ect). The fact that most African Americans vote Democrat makes this seem like to me deliberate targeting of opposition forces.

So how is this meaningfully democratic? Is it because they have an opposition party that the system is so stacked against that there’s no chance that they could meaningfully win? Because that also describes the Russian Federation under Putin, which I am sure you would not consider democratic.

US politics at the state and federal levels are dynamic and always in motion. They also operate independent of one another. Many of the red states now used to be blue and vice versa. FL used to be purple. Each state has great autonomy in setting rules for both state elections and federal elections within the state. Voting rights are state issues that have been overseen by the courts and the Supreme court. As Judges change over time ruling change. Gerrymandering has a long history that is slowing changing. States have obstructed voting rights since the beginning but over time we had steady improvements until about 2000. Talk radio then the tea party, then Trump have eroded those rights. The presidential race is the only office using the Electoral vote system. all the other elected positions are determined by simple vote counts. Senators are elected statewide and their elections cannot be gerrymandered. The House seats can be. The EC is an antiquated system but one that is difficult to change. Given all of this voting is pretty accurate and we have little to no actual fraud. Apathy is a problem; maybe divisiveness will help that.

Parties want to win and the GOP has seen that their future is dim as demographics takes its toll. They work very hard to stop that from happening. Our money based election systems have opened the door for those with money to lie their way into power. Free speech at work and SCOTUS has said: money is speech. So we muddle though. there are lots of efforts to make things better and strong objections to them. The US system is very complex with many moving parts across 50 different states. I expect the hard swing to the right will end as the nation's demographics change over the next 10-15 years. In addition, we will see just how USians respond to the overt move break the system that has worked sufficiently well for many years.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Very euphemistic.

I don't understand how you think this statement undermines Putin's anti-Communism.

And btw, Lenin is still on the square.

Yeah because it would really piss a lot of Russians off lol. I don't think he does it because he secretly wants to resurrect the USSR or whatever.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Maybe he is hoping for a place along side Lenin.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't understand how you think this statement undermines Putin's anti-Communism.


Yeah because it would really piss a lot of Russians off lol. I don't think he does it because he secretly wants to resurrect the USSR or whatever.

Putins a fairly run of the mill reactionary authoritarian imho. He's not a commie he has fascist tendencies.

 

[NinjaCow64]

US politics at the state and federal levels are dynamic and always in motion. They also operate independent of one another. Many of the red states now used to be blue and vice versa. FL used to be purple. Each state has great autonomy in setting rules for both state elections and federal elections within the state. Voting rights are state issues that have been overseen by the courts and the Supreme court. As Judges change over time ruling change. Gerrymandering has a long history that is slowing changing. States have obstructed voting rights since the beginning but over time we had steady improvements until about 2000. Talk radio then the tea party, then Trump have eroded those rights. The presidential race is the only office using the Electoral vote system. all the other elected positions are determined by simple vote counts. Senators are elected statewide and their elections cannot be gerrymandered. The House seats can be. The EC is an antiquated system but one that is difficult to change. Given all of this voting is pretty accurate and we have little to no actual fraud. Apathy is a problem; maybe divisiveness will help that.

Parties want to win and the GOP has seen that their future is dim as demographics takes its toll. They work very hard to stop that from happening. Our money based election systems have opened the door for those with money to lie their way into power. Free speech at work and SCOTUS has said: money is speech. So we muddle though. there are lots of efforts to make things better and strong objections to them. The US system is very complex with many moving parts across 50 different states. I expect the hard swing to the right will end as the nation's demographics change over the next 10-15 years. In addition, we will see just how USians respond to the overt move break the system that has worked sufficiently well for many years.

I don't feel like this answers my question. I wasn't asking if those states were meaningfully democratic in the past, or if they will be meaningfully democratic in the next 10-15 years. I am asking - are they meaningfully democratic now? What sets them apart from China and Russia?

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't feel like this answers my question. I wasn't asking if those states were meaningfully democratic in the past, or if they will be meaningfully democratic in the next 10-15 years. I am asking - are they meaningfully democratic now? What sets them apart from China and Russia?

Open question or for Birdjaguar only?

 

[NinjaCow64]

There are many other Chinese citizens who are in prison due to their politics.

As of January 2023, China has 1,690,000 prisoners compared to the United States' 1,675,000 prisoners. They have a similar number of prisoners despite China having four times the population of America. And many Americans are in prison for political reasons (like smoking marijuana). Does this make the United States four times as authoritarian as America, as the ratio of prisoners-to-general population is four times higher?

 

[cardgame]

US politics at the state and federal levels are dynamic and always in motion. They also operate independent of one another. Many of the red states now used to be blue and vice versa. FL used to be purple. Each state has great autonomy in setting rules for both state elections and federal elections within the state. Voting rights are state issues that have been overseen by the courts and the Supreme court. As Judges change over time ruling change. Gerrymandering has a long history that is slowing changing. States have obstructed voting rights since the beginning but over time we had steady improvements until about 2000. Talk radio then the tea party, then Trump have eroded those rights. The presidential race is the only office using the Electoral vote system. all the other elected positions are determined by simple vote counts. Senators are elected statewide and their elections cannot be gerrymandered. The House seats can be. The EC is an antiquated system but one that is difficult to change. Given all of this voting is pretty accurate and we have little to no actual fraud. Apathy is a problem; maybe divisiveness will help that.

Parties want to win and the GOP has seen that their future is dim as demographics takes its toll. They work very hard to stop that from happening. Our money based election systems have opened the door for those with money to lie their way into power. Free speech at work and SCOTUS has said: money is speech. So we muddle though. there are lots of efforts to make things better and strong objections to them. The US system is very complex with many moving parts across 50 different states. I expect the hard swing to the right will end as the nation's demographics change over the next 10-15 years. In addition, we will see just how USians respond to the overt move break the system that has worked sufficiently well for many years.

What is dynamic about the politics of Louisiana and Mississippi? How well they can react to oppress any new movements for rights? They've been red forever.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Open question or for Birdjaguar only?

The question is directed at Birdjaguar specifically but I won't object to anyone else trying to answer it. I do really want to hear Birdjaguar's take on it as it is relevant to his earlier posts about how China is undemocratic.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I don't feel like this answers my question. I wasn't asking if those states were meaningfully democratic in the past, or if they will be meaningfully democratic in the next 10-15 years. I am asking - are they meaningfully democratic now? What sets them apart from China and Russia?

Short answer is yes, but.... There are states that are less democratic at the House voting level and the state legislature level. All the states are democratic at the Senatorial level. The electoral Vote distorts the system. Money distorts the system. Talk radio distorts the system. Extremism distorts the system. A snap shot always leaves out any just before and just after the snapshot. What we see today is not what we will see in November 2024. The 2020 election is our most recent example. Wass it democratic? I would say yes. There is no election now to take a picture of the situation; all one can do is look at all the various pieces scattered among the states and courts and guess about 2024. Is our system working as intended? No, Women, POC and money are all voting now. But it is working while under great duress.

Is it better than China's system? ~40+% of US citizens voted in 2020. About 7% of Chinese citizens get a say in China's government. Which is better depends upon one's perspective about what democracy should look like. In the US almost all political speech is protected. In Russia and China speaking out against the government in public can get you arrested, fined, jailed or killed.

 

[Birdjaguar]

What is dynamic about the politics of Louisiana and Mississippi? How well they can react to oppress any new movements for rights? They've been red forever.

The entire US South was solidly democratic for a hundred years after the Civil War. When racial equality became political in the 1960s, they turned Republican red because the Dems passed laws forcing and end to segregation and voting denial. Since then while most are still red, there are purplish trends. The deep south has always been a hard core white supremacy strongholds. Between the late 1960s and the early 2000s, they were forced under the voting rights act of 1964 to conform to improved standards of voting practices. Since then a conservative SCOTUS has gutted that Act to allow states like Mississippi and Louisiana to revert back to pre 1964 thinking.

 

[NinjaCow64]

There are states that are less democratic at the House voting level and the state legislature level.

Less democratic than Russia and China?

Is our system working as intended? No, Women, POC and money are all voting now.

If women and POC voting is "the system not working as intended" then its a bad system.

In the US almost all political speech is protected. In Russia and China speaking out against the government in public can get you arrested, fined, jailed or killed.

Fred Hampton. Or for a more recent example, the various Black Lives Matter protestors who "mysteriously disappeared" or died under suspicious circumstances.

 

[Farm Boy]

The entire US South was solidly democratic for a hundred years after the Civil War. When racial equality became political in the 1960s, they turned Republican red because the Dems passed laws forcing and end to segregation and voting denial. Since then while most are still red, there are purplish trends. The deep south has always been a hard core white supremacy strongholds. Between the late 1960s and the early 2000s, they were forced under the voting rights act of 1964 to conform to improved standards of voting practices. Since then a conservative SCOTUS has gutted that Act to allow states like Mississippi and Louisiana to revert back to pre 1964 thinking.

They draw lines again like Illinois never stopped doing.

But, you know, things we care about. And who we don't.

Louisiana got peepee smacked by the SCOTUS last time, but they're rusty. They'll figure out how to ride the line again like a proper, upstanding, machine.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Less democratic than Russia and China?


If women and POC voting is "the system not working as intended" then its a bad system.


Fred Hampton. Or for a more recent example, the various Black Lives Matter protestors who "mysteriously disappeared" or died under suspicious circumstances.

So you are asking if an election in NM House district 3 is less democratic than than elections in China/Russia because it has been gerrymandered? In a nation where there no political speech allowed that does not conform to the government's wishes, there is no democracy.

The founders did not intend to have women or slaves vote nor did they consider the role money might play in 21st C elections. Expanded voting rights has made the system better. Improving systems that have fallen behind cultural changes is a good thing regardless of the original intentions of the creators. The money issue, not so much.

Fred Hampton? Stop being ridiculous. He is one guy from 50 years ago. The BLM protestors is unresolved to my thinking but not good. But you are holding those up against the many thousands arrested in Russia since the war started and the tens of thousands in HK that have been beaten or jailed or punished there. Or how about those who held a sheet of white paper up in protest and were arrested and jailed? And I am ignoring all the actions that go back earlier. And how what about Navalny if you want to go along with individual situations.

Free political speech in the US is out of control and one can say just about anything and be unmolested. Nazis have rallies. NewsMax lies every day. I could go on. To somehow claim that the US represses those who oppose government actions in a manner similar to Russia and China is just plain stupid.