incremental patch discussion

Hm. Does anybody have an archive of pre-1.7, say 1.6.1, to try? I am pretty sure it worked sometime. In 1.7 there was a big merge of RevDCM, etc, and that is the only thing I can think of which may have changed this. One of the all-terrain changes may have been merged incorrectly.
 
Testing Davids recent 1.7.3 merge patch. Just a few things..
Is it just my install or does the religion screen not display properly now?
Spice as a corporation income no longer displays on my economy screen.

Other than those, the new changes are awesome. I havent tested the vehicles vs cities yet. I was using Hardened Bladesmen for my city attacks.
 
In 1.7.3 (as in 1.7.1) there are no more spice corps. They briefly re-appeared in 1.7.2. If you hover the mouse over your palace, in the list of buildings in the city screen, you should see spice commerce income based on the number of spice resources you control. Is this working for you?
 
Units do have an XML tag which can prevent them from capturing a city: the bNoCapture tag, if it is 1 then the unit can not capture a city (it is used by the helicopter gunship unit in regular BtS).

Note that this does not prevent the unit from attacking other units in a city. It can wipe out every unit in the city, it just can't capture the city itself. If you can not attack the units in the city, then having this tag set to 1 can not be the problem.
 
Hm. Does anybody have an archive of pre-1.7, say 1.6.1, to try? I am pretty sure it worked sometime. In 1.7 there was a big merge of RevDCM, etc, and that is the only thing I can think of which may have changed this. One of the all-terrain changes may have been merged incorrectly.

The ModDB download page is now a handy archive of old Dune Wars versions.

Edit: I can confirm that you can attack cities with Suspensors and Thopters in 1.6.1.
 
It looks like some code blocks ships (DOMAIN_SEA) units from entering rival cities at war. I think ships behave in the same way in BtS too, so it's something you've "fixed" and forgot to look after it when you merged RevDCM stuff :).

I am not sure about +3 commerce for a palance per 1 spice resource. I've played 5 or 6 games and didn't try to go an anti-spice route, but I've noticed that with a spice-route you can spam as many cities as you want, because if they grab some more spice, they outpay themselves from the beginning.

Also because it's not :gold: but :commerce:, it means that more spice resources speed up research significally, leaving non-spicers behind.

I think it was not possible to do the same with a "common" economics, and also it means that "polotical" trait (+3 culture/turn) is may be the best trait in the game because your new cities start to bring you spice immediately.
 
In 1.6.4, I can still attack cities with Suspensors and Thopters. In 1.7, I cannot.

From the 1.7 changelog, one of these two seems most like to have caused this.

Spoiler :
Internal changes
* Updated to the latest version 2.61 of RevDCM, version 0.82 of Better BTS AI, and version 4.2 of BUG with version 1.0 of BULL (ported after extensive work by keldath). There are a number of gameplay and interface changes in these. You may easily spot the "Show Hidden Attitude" diplomacy mod and the "Building Actual Effects" city screen mod.
* Added Lead From Behind modcomp (by UncutDragon, merged by keldath)

This is making me increasingly opposed to making any further merges of RevDCM, Better AI or anything else unless there is a really strong reason to do so. Even then I would rather we just merge a small section of relevant code since the mod is now very different to vanilla and we just don't know how wide-ranging changes will affect Dune Wars. As david originally pointed out in this post, there wasn't really a compelling reason to merge this stuff in the first place, apart from (possibly) the Better BTS AI stuff.
 
I definitely think the best solution for Spice is to have the AI never trade it away or trade for it. Is that possible? Too easy to exploit otherwise, by selling above its value or below its value.

Sure, and actually it's easier than I thought, disregard my fix from previous post :). Just change the iAiTradeModifier in the CIV4BonusInfos.XML to -100 (was +15 which was actually making the AI pay more). Problem solved. The AI won't give it away and won't pay a dime for it either. Harvesters unaffected.
 
Yeah, I was quite amazed when I've found the RevDCM as a part of this mod. I really love Revolutions aspect of BtS mods, but I don't think that it can be easily put into Dune universe. It needs a lot of tweaks and "fixes" to follow the Dune feel and ethics, right now it feels to be a bit detached and inconsistent from the whole "polished" stylish content/look of the mod.
 
hey guys,

following the revdcm discussion, ive been thinking , on making a new fresh dll file, with just the stuff needed for dune.

but i wonder what parts are needed,

do you wish to use the better ai with it full code? or just parts?

and dales code, do we need it also?
 
I think culturally influenced war is very good. I think it makes a big difference, when you're fighting and pillaging over a heavily culture-clashing border area.

Political trait is intended to give you more spice (that's kinda the main idea; superior political skills give you more influence over claiming spice quotas), but its one of those traits (like imperialistic) that is fantastic in the early game, but is quickly outclassed. I don't think its too strong.
I can make a pretty good case for almost any of the traits being a "best" trait.
 
Well, it's "best" because it allows you to grab as much spice as possible and quickly outtech rivals. However at higher difficulties AI gets more bonuses to research and it's not that important anymore.
 
Aggresive trait is the best because it lets you blitz a nearby opponent in the early game (barracks + aggressive trait means you can instantly get Improved Shields promotion, for +30% strength vs guardsmen).

Philosophical trait is the best because it lets you set up a crazy-powerful specialist economy. Add in Meritocracy, Faufreluches and Water discipline and keep settling great people in place for large bonuses.

Similarly, Financial trait lets you set up a pretty sick Cottage economy; 3 commerce instantly from cottages adjacent to wells. Add in Private Property civic, terraformed tiles, Hereditary rule and get super-cities with huge income.

Imperialist trait is the best because it lets you REx like mad, taking a huge amount of land.

Mechanized trait is the best because it effectively gives 2 free promotions (combat and flanking) to all your suspensors and vehicles, letting you build up an army of quads and suspensor gunships and pillage nearby foes into oblivion.

etc.

Even with Political trait, you still have to have the workers to actually build the harvesters, and if they're doing that they're not building windtraps and dew collectors and wells to grow your economy. And Political trait is pretty much obsolete by the end of the early game.
 
Just change the iAiTradeModifier in the CIV4BonusInfos.XML to -100 (was +15 which was actually making the AI pay more). Problem solved. The AI won't give it away and won't pay a dime for it either. Harvesters unaffected.

Great, we will put that in at the first opportunity.
 
following the revdcm discussion, ive been thinking , on making a new fresh dll file, with just the stuff needed for dune.

but i wonder what parts are needed,

This is a good question. There is some stuff we definitely don't want; some stuff we definitely do want; and some stuff which is debatable.

BUG/BULL seem worthwhile. I was against it at first but I like some of the extra information. That is independent of RevDCM itself.

Super Spies is required, for a lot of the espionage mechanics. I think the new missions are cool but I don't hear much feedback about them.

I *think* that BBAI is very helpful in getting workers to build the right improvements; but also, several parts of our DW-specific code are wrapped around BBAI (all terrain attack; some parts of the BG spy missions) so removing it would be hard anyway.

AIAutoPlay and Change Player are very handy for debugging but they are part of BBAI so integrating BBAI would be sufficient.

To me, influence driven war is debatable. I know Ahriman likes it. I never see any useful effect myself.

A lot of the other stuff like barbarian civs, dynamic civ names, etc. is not really useful for DW.

It is "known" that RevDCM has broken multiplayer, and it is "believed" that BBAI is OK for multiplayer by itself, although there is some debate. Getting back to a build where multiplayer works would make some players happy.

At this point, I am not sure which is harder, removing RevDCM or finding the point bug which has crept in. Perhaps the best approach would be to take the 1.6.5 source code, find the changes which are marked by me, or cephalo as all-terrain related, and make sure all of them are in the 1.7 source code.
 
I totally support Davidlallen's post from a player's point of view. BUG/BULL is awesome, I simply love how it feeds the important info to me, makes the gameplay easier and more satisfying.

Super Spies is the thing which I don't get why is not included in vanilla BtS. It's a must for me, makes these "spy" units more personalized and adds more immersion. Without it all spies are the same and are worth of nothing as units while with Super Spies you are actually afraid of your high-level spy being caught because you cannot replace it at once.

I don't know anything about BBAI but right now AI is quite good so I guess it's needed :).

IDW is debatable for me too but if Ahriman likes it then it's cool. I don't notice a major impact of it (probably because I tend to lead quick wars) but it's a nice mechanic I like in BtS mods.

Barbarian civs and dynamic city names make no point for me because, well, Dune Wars is not about development of new civs, it's about a struggle of existant ones.
 
I wonder, is it designed that way that the only avaliable mech which does not require Ixian Weaponry is Cymek? Or did you just forget to put the prereq in?

Yes, intended.

The Cymek is a religious unit for the Technocracy religion; it is actually a cyborg.

Whereas the various other "mech" units are Ixian faction UUs, some of which can also be built by non-Ixians if they trade for the Ixian Weaponry tech. These are vehicles with pilots.

I think the new missions are cool but I don't hear much feedback about them.
I haven't been testing out espionage much.
I have used the Incite Revolt ability, which is nasty because it removes all city defenses for the turn - whicih is of course the turn that I invade it with everything. Its nasty.

The AI never uses any of them against me. The only AI spy actions I ever suffer are the occasional destroyed improvement, which does nothnig in the long-run. And sometimes steal treasury, which takes a small amount of gold (waste of EPs).

I think the problem is: the AI wastes all its EPs on low-value missions, and so never actually gets big enough EP accumulations to use nastier missions.

I wonder if what we should do is remove many/most of the spy missions, really leaving each particular spy with only a small number of missions to choose from, either cheap missions or expensive missions.

So: Saboteurs can only destroy buildings, and are the only ones who can do this, so we can make the Sabotage Building mission cheap.
Split the BG missions into "cheap" missions (the diplomacy influence ones) and "expensive" missions (city takeover, faction-wide anarchy); give the former to a Sister unit, and the latter to the Reverend Mother unit.

We could make a Harkonnen Traitor spy unit, whose only ability was the 1-turn incite revolt

The Facedancers could have poison/plague missions only.

Ecaz could have a steal treasury mission.
Fremen could have some kind of water stealing mission.

As current, Atreides left without, but with superior espionage resistance (through higher EP point income).

I think the advanced espionage options would be more interestnig and flavorful if they were tied more closely to their intended faction, and a narrower scope might make it easier to force the AI to use them.

Cutting away the low-impact missions would be a big help.

To me, influence driven war is debatable. I know Ahriman likes it. I never see any useful effect myself.
Often it can be valuable to engage in "pillage wars", where you don't have the strength to take enemy cities, but go around pillaging their improvements, particularly with quads or thopters or suspensors. Its nice to see this extending your borders into the pillaged tiles - and to have the reverse occur if you over-extend and get your pillaging units destroyed.

I don't care that much though, I wouldn't be that upset if we lost it.

A lot of the other stuff like barbarian civs, dynamic civ names, etc. is not really useful for DW.
Agreed. We had some ideas floating around about getting Jacurutu/water-stealer Fremen, but I can't think of a good way to actually implement it. A couple of barbarian-only Fremnish units would be able to get this flavor across without needing the barbarian civ mechanics.
But barbarians are never going to be a real threat beyond the very early game unless we can make them spawn in desert tiles, or inside cultural borders (eg through event).

At this point, I am not sure which is harder, removing RevDCM or finding the point bug which has crept in.
I don't envy this task, sounds tricky.
 
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