Inevitable gun control argument thread....

[Pokurcz]

"They may not hurt the lawful but they still steal from them only the government helps them. I'd rather have the choice to give a criminal my money then have a government force me to do it in my taxes."

Yeah it does sound rather like a mafia "an offer you cant refuse" type of thing, but hey its the government, they basically are the mafia!

Still you get what you pay for, relatively small chance of getting mugged.

 

[mdwh]

Let's not forget the planes on 9/11 were not hijacked by guns. If you remove all guns the one with the biggest knife wins.

So why didn't people stop the hijackers with their own knives?

You also have to factor in all the additional deaths everytime a plane goes down whether it's some madman, or someone shoots accidentally, or in an argument.

 

[mdwh]

In most of Europe if the mugger doesn't get your money its ok because he has a nice check from the government waiting for him at home. See here in America we expect you to take more care of yourself and be less of a parasite to the hard working people.

The US doesn't have any form of welfare or benefits?

And as a hard-working person, I prefer living in a place with welfare, crime being just one of many reasons.

 

[mdwh]

Actually militia by US law means all able-bodied males between 18 and 45, IIRC.

Interesting, so does this mean only men between 18 and 45 have the right to arms?

And I still haven't seen an answer to why this right doesn't apply to all arms? If it's okay to draw a line, why not draw it even tighter?

 

[Atlas14]

So why didn't people stop the hijackers with their own knives?

Knives aren't allowed on planes... the hijackers used box cutters that weren't detected.

This actually supports the argument for guns even more, as ID is saying, that removal of guns isn't an effective solution.

 

[skadistic]

The US doesn't have any form of welfare or benefits?

And as a hard-working person, I prefer living in a place with welfare, crime being just one of many reasons.

The US has a very limited welfare system (for now).....unless your an illegal alien.

As a hard working person I work for my benifit not to prop up others to stupid or lazy to do for them selves. I'll take the risk of beeing mugged along with option to defend myself.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

This actually supports the argument for guns even more, as ID is saying, that removal of guns isn't an effective solution.

Right, it makes perfect sense: the solution to gun violence is more guns, not less Too bad they dont solve the drug problem that way.

 

[SewerStarFish]

Are you suggesting that students should be bringing concealed weapons to class?

Yeahhhh, that is an excellent idea..

Are you suggesting that being unarmed victims is a better idea? I am in humble disagreement.

 

[Azash]

By allowing weapons in classrooms you are multiplying the risk of gunfights.

 

[SewerStarFish]

Works pretty well here too. Wikipedia article about finnish gun politics



Gun control lowers the change of a casual gunman getting a gun quite a lot. Over here all firearm owners have to keep their guns in safes.

I assume you mean there's more to it than that because Cho probably would have broken that law and taken his gun out of his safe.

 

[SewerStarFish]

er, isnt the key A well regulated militia? regulation means control, and militia implies a controlled group of volunteers. where does this give joe smith the right to bear arms as an individual outside of these controls?

No I meant exactly what I wrote, The US Supreme Court has been quite consistant that the phrase "the right of the people" is a singularly individual right when used in the Constitution. Thus the 2nd Amendment is a prohibition on the government, just like the 1st Amendment.

 

[Pokurcz]

Skadistic


"As a hard working person I work for my benifit not to prop up others to stupid or lazy to do for them selves."

In an age when thousands of jobs are moved to other countries with cheaper labor, even highly qualified ones, people hardly loose their jobs because of stupidity or laziness.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Interesting, so does this mean only men between 18 and 45 have the right to arms?

It says "right of the people"

Not the "right of the militia members"

And I still haven't seen an answer to why this right doesn't apply to all arms? If it's okay to draw a line, why not draw it even tighter?

"Arms" in the late 1787 specifically meant guns or "small" arms. Arms originally meant individual man portable weapons. Hence the term "arm."

Today the meaning of arms has changed to include all military weapons.

 

[Atlas14]

Right, it makes perfect sense: the solution to gun violence is more guns, not less Too bad they dont solve the drug problem that way.

And of course taking away guns leaves everyone except criminals with guns completely able to defend themselves I believe they have tried to solve the drug problem this way, and it has led to increasing illegal drug usage almost yearly.

 

[skadistic]

Skadistic


"As a hard working person I work for my benifit not to prop up others to stupid or lazy to do for them selves."

In an age when thousands of jobs are moved to other countries with cheaper labor, even highly qualified ones, people hardly loose their jobs because of stupidity or laziness.

New jobs can be made. The vast majority of American jobs are created in the small buisness fields where out sourcing is not an option. There are jobs out there but most requier hard work wich many are to lazy to do. There are also tons of jobs that you need to be able to piss in a cup for. Stupid people can't do that. Stupid and lazy wont keep you from being layed off but it will get you fired and keep you from getting one of the many jobs out there.

For alot of the stupid & lazy people who think thug life is the way to go, they want the easy way wich is to take it from others. I see no reason why they should be allowed to. I believe my right to protect myself trumps their right to rob me.

I was a homeless drug addict but I was never jobless and I never begged or robbed people to get money. I worked in fundries and other extream labour jobs for minimum wage as a day labourer.

There are good excuses for not working or stealing. Just like there is no good reason why I should be forced to be a victim or pay for the lazy and stupid.

 

[Pokurcz]

skadistic

Well some people might find their life's hopeless from the start and not have the drive to make something out of themselves, and some people are leeches on society, but one shouldn't put them all under one label.

"I was a homeless drug addict but I was never jobless and I never begged or robbed people to get money. I worked in fundries and other extream labour jobs for minimum wage as a day labourer."

But you probably were raised under relatively good circumstances and furthermore probably had family and friends/contacts to help you ever so slightly when you where ready.

What I mean is that you probably are not a black fellow born and raised in the worst possible conditions.

In deed I also do believe that it is best that people sort them selfs out if one is ever to hope for a lasting result. And that "free money" often might set a pattern of dependency.

But one often hears about single black women working two jobs with very low pay that are unable to raise their standard of living and properly raise their children. Clearly the government should do something, like raising the minimum wage, free medical help and good schools that help people help themselves.

Just because you've had it bad doesn't mean that you can compare yourself with every unfortunate schmo. Clearly you had at the least, something in you that helped to propel you out of your plight and in deed kept you from sinking far to deep in it.

Still kudos to you!

 

[heythere84]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18237342

Kinda relates to this thread. I find it pretty comical.

 

[skadistic]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18237342

Kinda relates to this thread. I find it pretty comical.

See now thats what I'm talkin' 'bout!! Old lady had a gun but didn't kill anybody. She didn't have to. And now there are criminals caught that would have gotten away to rob some one else.

 

[JollyRoger]

No I meant exactly what I wrote, The US Supreme Court has been quite consistant that the phrase "the right of the people" is a singularly individual right when used in the Constitution. Thus the 2nd Amendment is a prohibition on the government, just like the 1st Amendment.

The last Supreme Court case on the 2nd Amendmnet held that it was a collective right, not an individual right. Of course that was 70 years ago, so the Supreme Court really doesn't seem interested in the 2nd Amendment either way.

 

[SewerStarFish]

The last Supreme Court case on the 2nd Amendment held that it was a collective right, not an individual right. Of course that was 70 years ago, so the Supreme Court really doesn't seem interested in the 2nd Amendment either way.

I also mentioned 70 years seem a bit long -- the Federal distict court in Washington DC has just issued a ruling avowing the opposite of that exact ruling citing the "right of the people" precedents of most but not all of the supreme court decisions.

In any event my particular state's, Pennsylvania, constitution also gives me the right. I have a permit and admittedly hardly ever carry -- but at least I have a choice.