Institutional racism in policing and how to rectify it.

[Farm Boy]

You missed some of the nuance I think because you're disagreeing with things I didn't say. Or at least I didn't mean to say.

I said the coroner called it a homicide. That just means the medical expert in determining cause of death determined that he died because a human killed him. That's it. The coroner doesn't issue proclamations or judgments of guilt.

I also did not call to disarm the police. I did say that police officers responsible for strongarming suspects should probably not introduce a gun dangling off their waist to the situation without previous information about the suspect being armed and dangerous.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

As to disarming the Police force, good luck with that, all you will end up with is a bunch of cops in body bags because they didn't have ready access to their service weapon. If there were a national statistic for how often officers responded to a shots fired or shots fired once on scene you would understand why officers MUST be armed. We have 300 million guns in this country with the general public and thats just the legal ones. I'd bet a majority of officers would resign if you tried to disarm them, and I sincerely doubt you would be able to find replacements.

I'd say officers without guns would approach things in a much different way; not run in, slap their hip and say "what, no gun?" and get themselves killed. You are right that you would get a lot of resignations...from officers who joined the force in hopes of getting to shoot somebody. Just like after the riots in 92 the LAPD got a lot of resignations from guys who didn't like rules against beating people being enforced, the ones that resign shouldn't be missed much.

 

[Smote]

CH has a point here - I don't think the choke killed him - see the opinion of some BJJ experts here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1xRtWKOU

There would have been damage to the cartilage in the neck for that sort of choke to have directly killed him, and there wasn't.

However, I do think the police used an excessive amount of force and negligently allowed Eric Garner to die.

 

[Colonel]

You missed some of the nuance I think because you're disagreeing with things I didn't say. Or at least I didn't mean to say.

I said the coroner called it a homicide. That just means the medical expert in determining cause of death determined that he died because a human killed him. That's it. The coroner doesn't issue proclamations or judgments of guilt.

I also did not call to disarm the police. I did say that police officers responsible for strongarming suspects should probably not introduce a gun dangling off their waist to the situation without previous information about the suspect being armed and dangerous.

Declaring it a homicide is outside the coroners responsibility and expertise. It is semantics of what he saying true but if he was trying to cite that the choke killed the guy it should have been external asphyxiation consistent with a choke hold. Again a coroner doesn't have the expertise to declare something a homicide as that is a legal definition. Thats why if someone is killed by someone else with a lead pipe to the head a coroner would say the cause of death is a blunt force trauma to the head. That is a classic case of someone stepping outside their own job to decide everything. The only way he could have stated homicide is based on evidence he shouldn't have qualified in his offical report, ie the video. Second, you should look through the coroner's report more specifically the true cause of death is an asthma attack effectively with a contributing factor being the choke hold. Just as a tazer, or pepper spray, or other non-lethal approach would have been a contributing factor.

As to having half the officers disarmed, that is blatantly a bad idea. Things can escalate in a matter of seconds to the point where an officer would need his weapon.

I'd say officers without guns would approach things in a much different way; not run in, slap their hip and say "what, no gun?" and get themselves killed. You are right that you would get a lot of resignations...from officers who joined the force in hopes of getting to shoot somebody. Just like after the riots in 92 the LAPD got a lot of resignations from guys who didn't like rules against beating people being enforced, the ones that resign shouldn't be missed much.

Tim, it wouldn't be alot of resignations, it would be a total force resignation. It has nothing to do with people joining the force in the hopes of getting to shoot someone. (and that is blatantly offensive to Police officers and should be to everyone else). It has everything to do with the fact that you are putting the Officers in an insane amount of danger as well as the public in the same level of danger. What all because there is a very small minority of incidents where possibly the wrong person was shot. I think this is a great time to throw out the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few argument. You would descend our society into anarchy just because you don't like the Police. It truly an amazing thing when as Americans we are so blessed that some of us forget that the security of our nation is only a few steps away from total anarchy. So go ahead with your plan, try to disarm the officers, when there is no one there to stop you from being murdered by one of the many Micheal Browns of the world what will you say then!

 

[Senethro]

Modern day racism can look like a bizarre inability to regard black people like other human beings.

What sort of person fears an uprising of Michael Browns and believes the police are the thing blue line keeping them safe...

What might this person condone due to their paranoid delusions...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This 'descent into anarchy' is a bunch of hogswallop.

The vast majority of people who are at this moment not committing crimes would be not committing the exact same crimes if there were no cops at all, or only unarmed cops. The people who are at this moment committing crimes and hoping not to be observed by an armed police officer would be just as disinterested in being observed by an unarmed police officer.

An armed defense force is (or at least should be) a much different thing than law enforcement. The death penalty has not proven to be a demonstrable deterrent, and enabling cops to administer it at random isn't a deterrent either. Cops need guns because cops start fights, and fights once started escalate to deadly force pretty regularly. But starting fights isn't really a necessary part of their job.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ok fine, determining what the cause of death likely was is exactly what a coroner does. Determining if anyone is guilty of punishable homicide is what juries and finders of fact are for. When the coroner decides that the cause of death was consistent with a chokehold, you have the chokehold on video, and you have officers saying, ''yup, that's me in the video doing that chokehold.'' then what you're arguing is not whether the chokehold administered by the officer was fatal but whether or not they should be punished.

I also didn't say 'disarm half the police.' I said don't introduce firearms within open and accessible reach to unarmed subjects being subdued and offered one possible scenario. When policing actually becomes a dangerous profession on the numbers, then maybe I would be able to listen to people complaining about how many cops get killed every year without thinking they're absolutely full of pig manure if they also suggest that we can't possibly meaningfully address firearms handling on the force. Crimeny, my work is unlikely to get me killed but I'm far more likely to die working than is a cop. And if I can do something that makes it more likely for me to get hurt, like attaching backup safety chains alongside the pin while hauling full wagons on the road, I'm still going to do that because it makes it less likely that I'll inadvertently kill somebody else on the road if I'm unlucky or make a mistake. It's not too much to ask of decent people. It might be too much to ask of exactly the sort of person who should never be trusted with a badge. You know, the worst sort of person.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But if they don't wade into fights with a holstered gun, how will they be able to claim 'he grabbed for my gun' when they shoot somebody?

 

[Colonel]

This 'descent into anarchy' is a bunch of hogswallop.

The vast majority of people who are at this moment not committing crimes would be not committing the exact same crimes if there were no cops at all, or only unarmed cops. The people who are at this moment committing crimes and hoping not to be observed by an armed police officer would be just as disinterested in being observed by an unarmed police officer.

An armed defense force is (or at least should be) a much different thing than law enforcement. The death penalty has not proven to be a demonstrable deterrent, and enabling cops to administer it at random isn't a deterrent either. Cops need guns because cops start fights, and fights once started escalate to deadly force pretty regularly. But starting fights isn't really a necessary part of their job.

Do you somehow expect criminals to suddenly surrender when an unarmed cop shows up? Seeing as most criminals have ready access to illegal firearms it would stand to reason that if cops suddenly disarmed, every criminal would arm up because it would be the easiest way to get away. What has been suggested in this thread is incredibly dangerous both for the Police but also the general Public. Cops are expected to detain and arrest criminals and suspected criminals which usually results in some level of physical force being used to achieve this goal.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Do you somehow expect criminals to suddenly surrender when an unarmed cop shows up? Seeing as most criminals have ready access to illegal firearms it would stand to reason that if cops suddenly disarmed, every criminal would arm up because it would be the easiest way to get away. What has been suggested in this thread is incredibly dangerous both for the Police but also the general Public. Cops are expected to detain and arrest criminals and suspected criminals which usually results in some level of physical force being used to achieve this goal.

Other than on TV, do you really think cops roll up in the nick of time and stop a crime in progress with a daring wave of their guns?

Cops show up at the door and say 'we are here to arrest you, come along'. Anyone with a brain says 'if I run, or even stupider try to blast my way out of here, I'm screwed anyway' and they come along. Those who run find out fairly quickly that living life and leaving no electronic or paper trail is incredibly hard, and when the cops show up a second time they come along.

The biggest physical danger criminals present to the general public is that they will end up in a shootout with cops...even if they themselves aren't armed and the shootout is strictly a one way event.

 

[Colonel]

Other than on TV, do you really think cops roll up in the nick of time and stop a crime in progress with a daring wave of their guns?

Cops show up at the door and say 'we are here to arrest you, come along'. Anyone with a brain says 'if I run, or even stupider try to blast my way out of here, I'm screwed anyway' and they come along. Those who run find out fairly quickly that living life and leaving no electronic or paper trail is incredibly hard, and when the cops show up a second time they come along.

The biggest physical danger criminals present to the general public is that they will end up in a shootout with cops...even if they themselves aren't armed and the shootout is strictly a one way event.

As there aren't national stats for this I will give you one night of Ferguson, shots fired about every two-three minutes over the course of four hours. Now that is directly from the Police frequencies at the time, on those nights the media decided it wanted to sell the story of a peaceful Ferguson. On a regular night, there is at least two or three shots fired or officer taking fire calls. Would you like to try that generalization about how criminals typically surrender peacefully or aren't out shooting others when not shooting cops? You really do live in a fantasy world where the only thing in your eyes that is bad is the Police. I truly feel sorry for your warped sense of the world.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

As there aren't national stats for this I will give you one night of Ferguson, shots fired about every two-three minutes over the course of four hours. Now that is directly from the Police frequencies at the time, on those nights the media decided it wanted to sell the story of a peaceful Ferguson. On a regular night, there is at least two or three shots fired or officer taking fire calls. Would you like to try that generalization about how criminals typically surrender peacefully or aren't out shooting others when not shooting cops? You really do live in a fantasy world where the only thing in your eyes that is bad is the Police. I truly feel sorry for your warped sense of the world.

You produce an example from the middle of a riot and try to pass it off as normal day to day events, and you say that I have a warped sense of the world?

 

[Colonel]

You produce an example from the middle of a riot and try to pass it off as normal day to day events, and you say that I have a warped sense of the world?

Notice I gave you two separate instances normal nights have at least two to three calls like that.

 

[Old Hippy]

As there aren't national stats for this I will give you one night of Ferguson, shots fired about every two-three minutes over the course of four hours. Now that is directly from the Police frequencies at the time, on those nights the media decided it wanted to sell the story of a peaceful Ferguson. On a regular night, there is at least two or three shots fired or officer taking fire calls. Would you like to try that generalization about how criminals typically surrender peacefully or aren't out shooting others when not shooting cops? You really do live in a fantasy world where the only thing in your eyes that is bad is the Police. I truly feel sorry for your warped sense of the world.

that illistrates the complete failure and ineffectalness of the existing system, sort of what the protesters where saying, except it is from the police point of view of how the current system is broke... you would think people would welcome a dicussion on changing it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Notice I gave you two separate instances normal nights have at least two to three calls like that.

There won't be any 'normal' nights in Ferguson for a long time. The citizens there have accepted that the police are an armed enemy force and are treating them as such, so 'officer under fire' calls are going to be the norm until a ceasefire is arranged. That has nothing to do with criminal behavior, that's just to be expected when cops declare war on the town.

 

[Colonel]

There won't be any 'normal' nights in Ferguson for a long time. The citizens there have accepted that the police are an armed enemy force and are treating them as such, so 'officer under fire' calls are going to be the norm until a ceasefire is arranged. That has nothing to do with criminal behavior, that's just to be expected when cops declare war on the town.

You hear the same calls on the streets of every city. It simply doesn't get reported, listen to the police bands and you will see the real picture.

As to Ferguson, the National Guard will eventually take over and put down the insurrection.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You hear the same calls on the streets of every city. It simply doesn't get reported, listen to the police bands and you will see the real picture.

As to Ferguson, the National Guard will eventually take over and put down the insurrection.

Oh, there are shots fired calls all the time, no doubt. Very few shots fired calls relate to any criminal activity other than stupid people firing off guns though. There are very very few crimes that a gun contributes anything to. And the majority of the shots fired crimes get resolved the same way other crimes do. The cops show up, talk to some witnesses, someone gets ratted out, and the cops go to their place and tell them to come along...and they do.

The only weapon that actually matters to a criminal is anonymity. Once that's demonstrably gone, and the cops at the door are a clear demonstration that it is gone, very few have any interest in fighting about it.

 

[Farm Boy]

You hear the same calls on the streets of every city. It simply doesn't get reported, listen to the police bands and you will see the real picture.

No, you don't. And we do listen.

 

[Colonel]

Oh, there are shots fired calls all the time, no doubt. Very few shots fired calls relate to any criminal activity other than stupid people firing off guns though. There are very very few crimes that a gun contributes anything to. And the majority of the shots fired crimes get resolved the same way other crimes do. The cops show up, talk to some witnesses, someone gets ratted out, and the cops go to their place and tell them to come along...and they do.

The only weapon that actually matters to a criminal is anonymity. Once that's demonstrably gone, and the cops at the door are a clear demonstration that it is gone, very few have any interest in fighting about it.

Nothing you have said is backed by any sort of evidence. Statistics from the FBI and other sources in fact contradict everything you have said. Criminals usually try escaping or fighting there way out. It is in fact a miracle most of these instances don't escalate to a point where lethal force is necessary. Luckily, we have very well trained and professional officers who exercise their authority responsibly and only use the appropriate level of force, as is actually evidenced by the New York and Ferguson cases. The only questionable action in either of those cases is a possible choke hold which NYPD made against policy.

Farm Boy, clearly not then. I've listened to various police bands around the country and I hear those sorts of calls each time.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, you don't. And we do listen.

He should have said big city. In a city with millions of people there probably is a gunshot somewhere just about every night. But other than a domestic dispute gone way out of hand or a bar fight gone way out of hand there isn't much in the way of criminal activity where a gun is brought into play other than by cops.