International Astronomical Union XXVIth General Assembly

You cant have something like the Solar System being monkeyed around with every generation on whims of the moment. Pluto got in as a planet and should remain one. This was our first Solar System, we'll do a much better job of classification with our next one.
 
In the "what is a planet" discusion, perhaps we should look at atmosphere, and define a planet as any object capable, if no outside forces influence it, of maintaining an atmosphere of a certain pressure or density.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
You cant have something like the Solar System being monkeyed around with every generation on whims of the moment. Pluto got in as a planet and should remain one. This was our first Solar System, we'll do a much better job of classification with our next one.
Ceres got in as planet too. If it could get demoted, why not Pluto?
 
The Last Conformist said:
Ceres got in as planet too. If it could get demoted, why not Pluto?
Last, stand on any streetcorner in any major city in the world and ask passersby whtehr they think Ceres should be a planet. The odds that anyone you ask ever even heard of Ceres, are yes, 'astronomical'. Now the next day, ask people if Pluto should be considered a planet. Everyone will know what youre talking about, and probably 99.9 % of the people will say yes, that it should. Thats why Pluto should remain a 'planet', IMO.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Last, stand on any streetcorner in any major city in the world and ask passersby whtehr they think Ceres should be a planet. The odds that anyone you ask ever even heard of Ceres, are yes, 'astronomical'. Now the next day, ask people if Pluto should be considered a planet. Everyone will know what youre talking about, and probably 99.9 % of the people will say yes, that it should. Thats why Pluto should remain a 'planet', IMO.
This argument is not without merit, but it's entirely unrelated to your previous one.
 
The Last Conformist said:
This argument is not without merit, but it's entirely unrelated to your previous one.
You mean this?
Bozo Erectus said:
You cant have something like the Solar System being monkeyed around with every generation on whims of the moment. Pluto got in as a planet and should remain one. This was our first Solar System, we'll do a much better job of classification with our next one.
I dont think its unrelated. Im explaining why I think Pluto should remain a planet. Everyone around the world today knows Pluto as a planet. You cant take away peoples planets. Whatever happened at one point with Ceres is irrelevant, nobody even knows it exists. Pluto is...Pluto.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
You mean this?

I dont think its unrelated. Im explaining why I think Pluto should remain a planet. Everyone around the world today knows Pluto as a planet. You cant take away peoples planets. Whatever happened at one point with Ceres is irrelevant, nobody even knows it exists. Pluto is...Pluto.
Obviously, you can take away people's planets - a few generations of children learnt that Ceres was a planet in school, then it got demoted, and the world didn't end. Hell, dozens of generations learnt that the Sun was a planet, then Copernicus came along and said it was not, and the world didn't end because of that either, and while Ceres might be obscure, the Sun is as non-obscure as any extra-terrestrial body can be.

(From personal experience, I would incidentally dispute that anything close to 100% of people even in the West know what Pluto is.)
 
The Last Conformist said:
Obviously, you can take away people's planets - a few generations of children learnt that Ceres was a planet in school, then it got demoted, and the world didn't end. Hell, dozens of generations learnt that the Sun was a planet, then Copernicus came along and said it was not, and the world didn't end because of that either, and while Ceres might be obscure, the Sun is as non-obscure as any extra-terrestrial body can be.
Well I just think that, since it really doesnt matter one whit one way or the other if Pluto is reclassified or not, why not just leave it alone and forget about explaining all of this minutiae to those billions of people who only have foggy notions at best about the Solar system, and already distrust science and scientists.
(From personal experience, I would incidentally dispute that anything close to 100% of people even in the West know what Pluto is.)
You think its that bad? I think anyone today who never heard of Pluto would have to be ******** or have some other mental problem.
 
No no no, who cares what the man in the street says, we're talking science. And the sun and the moon were called planets a lot longer than Pluto was, in fact were among the original 7. The Greeks had a definition of planets, and it included the sun and the moon. I do not want to see exceptions made for Pluto.
 
Cheetah said:
What is significant? And what is small?
Anything that causes it to go into a specefic orbit around the star (resonance orbits, trojans), or prevents it from going into a specefic orbit (resonance gaps, instability regions) other then one that is very near the object. Small body size is irrelevant, a 20km object and a 50m object have about the same orbital properties.

Cheetah said:
So how about "It must have 10 times the mass necesarry to maintain a spherical form."? :)
Well, there's no definite spherical mass cutoff so you'd be stuck with a wide zone of vagueness, plus 10 times is quite arbitrary (as you said) and it still would still include a whole mess of KBOs.
 
Pluto is in, and brought a few friends! (well, if the vote goes as planned anyhow...)

And Then There Were Twelve

For going on two centuries, astronomers have debated what exactly a planet is and which celestial bodies should qualify. The question was finally forced a year ago by the discovery of 2003 UB313, tentatively named Xena, a body larger than Pluto residing in an even more distant orbit. If Pluto is a planet, then Xena must be one, too -- along with lots of other bodies in the outer reaches of the solar system. But if you don't want to open the floodgates to so many new planets, you have to relegate Pluto to some lesser status. In either case, tradition must give way.

The debate is nearing its resolution. This morning, a committee of the International Astronomical Union announced a new definition of planet at the triennial IAU General Assembly being held in Prague. Astronomers will vote on it a week from tomorrow. The committee proposes to define a planet as a body that orbits around a star and is large enough that gravity (as opposed to material strength) controls its shape. Formally, the definition reads:

A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a satellite of a planet.

The new solar system

Part (a) would typically translate into a mass larger than 5 x 10^20 kilograms or a diameter greater than about 800 kilometers. Smaller bodies tend to have a craggy shape, but it is possible for them to qualify as planets if, for want of structural integrity, they have settled into a round shape.

Regarding part (b), the committee allows for multiple planets sharing an orbit, such as double planets -- two planets orbiting each other and also moving as a pair around the star. A pair counts as a double planet, rather than a planet and satellite, if they are roughly comparable in size -- more specifically, if their center of gravity lies outside the surface of the larger body. Thus Earth's moon remains a satellite, but Pluto's companion Charon is now a planet.

By these criteria, the sun has 12 planets: the nine usual ones plus Charon, Xena, and the largest asteroid, Ceres. More may soon join them. Astronomers could find that other asteroids have a round shape, and new discoveries of Xena-like bodies are almost guaranteed.

So it is a reasonable definition that confirms most people's intuition about planets. I'd been worried that they might try to undefine Pluto as a planet, which would violate well-established precedent, or lock in the classical designations, which would deny scientific progress. The definition also sticks to observable criteria. Lying in the back of everyone's mind is that the real definition of a planet is an object that forms by accretion in a circumstellar disk of gas and dust, rather than direct collapse from an interstellar gas cloud. But origins are often murky.

That said, the system strikes me as odd in several respects. For one, it sweeps the problem of what a star is under the rug, possibly leading to inconsistencies and disagreements; it might have been better to develop a full, coherent system of definitions. Also, the proposal explicitly rejects planetary status for bodies that have been ejected from orbit and consigned to wander through intergalactic space; yet it offers no new nomenclature for these bodies, leaving them orphaned twice over. The committee adds a category known as "plutons" for transneptunian, or Kuiper Belt, objects; yet this coinage is not in widespread usage among astronomers. Other people will surely be unhappy that the committee does away with the term "minor planet" and instead introduces the clunky, acronym-resistant "small solar system objects".

linkeroo

so we might have a few new planets...one of which will be named Xena...
 
Thing is... are they going to go through this again in a few decades when they discover a dozen more Kuiper Belt Objects that qualify and think there are too many? The KB goes out a long way, there could be a lot more candidates out there...
 
Then there will be a lot of new planets. No big deal.

I like the definition. :)

I'm just pondering if they should rename Xena or not. I'm not sure why all the planets in this solar system needs to be named after greek and roman gods.
 
Che Guava said:
so we might have a few new planets...one of which will be named Xena...

Last I heard it was not an official name per se; they have to pick an official name before it is revealed to the world as a full fledged planet.

But that's just what I heard... somewhere. I hope it's true, because Xena is a ridiculous name.
 
Cheetah said:
Then there will be a lot of new planets. No big deal.

I like the definition. :)

I'm just pondering if they should rename Xena or not. I'm not sure why all the planets in this solar system needs to be named after greek and roman gods.

How about we start including Gods from other religions?

They should rename Xena to Jesus ;)
 
is Xena even a godess?
 
Cheetah said:
I'm just pondering if they should rename Xena or not. I'm not sure why all the planets in this solar system needs to be named after greek and roman gods.
I don't know if there's an actual rule mandating that, but in any case Xena will never be the official name - it has not been submited to the IAU as a candidate name, and won't be.
 
Well, they broke with tradition when they named Sedna, so I suppose it's possible. :p
 
Back
Top Bottom