Intersite BtS PitBoss

[IanDC]

When BCLG says there is no advantage how does he know surely it is upto the defending team to decide that!!

It seems to me that sums it up & the rest is pretty straight forward.

1- the rule is clearly no DM in war time.
2- civstats shows it very clearly that a DM was made

If Sonny wants a reload then I'd say he should get it. I don't know if the game makes a save at the start/end of each turn, as that would look like the best one, failing that there's CH's login from the next turn if it happened before the 2nd move was made or back to BCLG's login at the turn end.

For the future I'm ok with switching to a DM's allowed except on war declaration. If we're going to keep the no DM rule then We need to round up a neutral umpire.

 

[BCLG100]

There was no way you could have defended the three potential landing spots/launched a counter attack. You only had 2 units capable of being in the city and another being 2 tiles away from the city.

The galleys themselves have 3mp- so i could pretty much move where i wanted them too without you seeing.

I played both turns at one time so i could not have to come back at a later time and play the things. I don't have infinate time everyday to wait to play after someone else nor do i wish to possibly have to find a sub at last minute. If a reasonable suggestion can be made as to what you would have done differently then im quite happy for the turn to be reloaded. As it was- you had one injured archer two tiles away from the city, one injured chariot with a possible GG attached to it and possibly another chariot. You say the possibility of a counter attack but who would counter attack against 1 archer with 4 promos and 1 with 5 with their last two units. Whether they were on grassland or hills or forests or anything!

 

[robboo]

Changed name to Beorn]CDZ[", "11/26/07 4:12 pm Beorn]CDZ[ Changed name to Robboo(cdz)"? Obviously, your team was able to make a turn later but you decided to double move.

Beorn logged in to look around so he can take over BC's turns in the next couple of days. He logged in to my civ as to not cause problems.

I agree that if a reload needs to happen it has to happen after BC's first turn. IF thats not possible you are then giving sonny the advantage similar to a DM.

 

[robboo]

double post

 

[whiplash_CDC]

So since you took the game down...what is your plan. Who goes in what order to play it out.

IF YOU RELOAD THIS...YOU BETTER GIVE ALL PARTIES ALOT OF WARNING in order for teams to play in the correct order.

Based upon what I am reading here there was a clear rule violation and I think that the turn should be replayed.

You started the discussion so now...here my suggestions based on playing about a 8 to 10 pitboss games.
1. non-game coded rules dont work and lead to fights.
2. non-game coded rules dont work and lead to fights.
3. having a "rule enforcer " thats in the game...is unfair. his decisions will have personal bias. (its impossible not to)

Regardless of your opinion of non-game coded rules, the rule was clearly stated and BCLG chose to break it. I could recruit a non-partial "judge" but that would take a lot of time.

THEREFORE...
DM are fair at all times except declarations of war. IF CIVstats is down you can't tell DMs.(so its not 100% enforceable) There is no game code against DMs.( not enforceable) DMs cause more fights and game stoppages than your router problems(joking) I think we all see that its impossible to play a DM free pitboss. If you want DM free...play PBEM. The game moves faster and turns get played quicker if you dont have to worry about DMing someone.

Oh and before someone says I am just saying this now...look back at any thing I have said in rules discussions...I HATE NON-GAME CODED RULES. Play the game like it was written bugs and all.

I disagree that DM are fair. Just because you don't like the rule for this game doesn't give you the right to violate it. I think it's pretty clear from the 4 minute time span that you willfully violated the game rule. The game should not be decided by players who use clock manipulation. In this case civstats was not down. I have played in about a dozen pitboss games that did not have fights over DM. Especially in this game, where teammates can share passwords to play for another, a team can wait to avoid a DM. If DM is allowed the game will take much longer to complete as you will have many turns where some player(s) will be waiting for the timer to expire in order to get the first move in the next turn to complete the DM.

If the majority of teams want to change the rule now that can be done; but the origional rule should apply until that happens.

Whiplash...you put yourself in a bad spot. You cant make decision here thats not biased. If CFC or CDZ are your allies or potential allies...you have to side with them out of self interest. Even if you allies are planning to attack CFC or CDZ...your decision will be influenced.

I would not sacrifice my integrity for the sake of winning a computer game. Besides, in this case, PAL has no interest in the outcome of a war between CFC and CDZ at least as far as can be seen from this point. Obviously the outcome of a war between two team will impact the other teams "down the road"; but in this case the impact on PAL (and likely STG) is not foreseeable.

if you reload... you have to reload after BC first turn so Sonny cant have 2 turns prep. You split BCs DM up. If you can reload to only when sonny redos his turn prior to both of BCs turns then you gave sonny a major advantage as big of an advantage as BC's.

I need to check the Recovery Files to see what reload options are available.

you cant have 7 (was 8) people in a war(2 civs) and not have a DM...stoppping the game every time...will likely kill it.

Perhaps unintentional DM's would occur in certain circumstances; but this one was "set up" by BCLG.

My inclination is for a reload if sonny thinks it would have made a difference in the battle outcome. The attacker(s) say it would not make a difference. I would also like to here from STG on this.

 

[BCLG100]

Im happy for a reload- i dont think what i did was wrong but if thats whats going to happen then i'd rather it happened now rather than a few days time

So long as the upload is at the end of my first turn. If its the whole turn before thats just not fair.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

Im happy for a reload- i dont think what i did was wrong but if thats whats going to happen then i'd rather it happened now rather than a few days time

So long as the upload is at the end of my first turn. If its the whole turn before thats just not fair.

OK, I've got to run to work now. I'll check the reload options this evening.

 

[classical_hero]

Why? i didnt attack anything, CH your team member was there at the rollover so if he had of needed to do anything he could of. Plus all movement was done in a boat which you wouldn't have been able to stop anyways.

Unfortunately only Sonny has the password for his civ. The password that he gave is not correct, so it was not possible for me to play, plus while I was online I was in my own civ at the time, so it would have not been possible for me to be playing sonny's turn anyway.

 

[HitAnyKey]

In my opinion, the only "fair" reload (as BCLG stated) would be the turn rollover save for 650BC (which should be timestamped 7:34am EST). It is a bit annoying that this had to come after nearly every player had played their turns, and from reading what everyone has said I personally don't think the outcome would change a whole lot. But if Sonny thinks it would, then I see no "harm" in reloading as I don't believe there were many major things going on with what everyone else did that turn.

I do want to state that the reload should occur at pretty much the exact same time that the turn started the first time. So the reload should occur as close to 7:30am EST as possible, as that's the time the turn would have started originally. Or at least plan the reload such that sonny can play his turn relatively early in the reload so bclg can go soon afterwards and maybe we can get through this replay of the turn fast enough.

 

[robboo]

whiplash...my post was suggestions not what should be fair since you wanted discussions. YES BC broke the rules so reload to where BC played the second turn.

IF you cant then we need more discussion on just how to proceed.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

It is a bit annoying that this had to come after nearly every player had played their turns,

Thats because he waited for the timer to nearly run out in order to set up the DM. This reinforces my earlier point that if DM's are allowed the game will take longer to finish.

 

[BCLG100]

what are you talking about whiplash? for a start your implying i intentionally ignored one of the rules and delayed the game in order to play- which i did not i just happened to log in whilst CH was there also.

Secondly HAK was talking about the turn that was just about to be finished! therefore having nothing to do with me but with your sloweness in taking the game down, if anything this reinforces the point that if DM's are allowed the game would be over quicker as we would have no pointless delays such as this.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

OK, I misunderstood; but the point is still valid. Intentional double movers will wait until the timer runs out to set up the double move. Also, the intended target may do the same in order to try to prevent the double move.

 

[BCLG100]

I generally think that having a turn end before its allotted time is up is a complete luxury, i never expect someone to finish a turn. Taking say an hour over every turn is going to be better than stopping for 26-48 hours every few weeks when there is a DM.

 

[IglooDame]

I disagree that DM are fair. Just because you don't like the rule for this game doesn't give you the right to violate it. I think it's pretty clear from the 4 minute time span that you willfully violated the game rule. The game should not be decided by players who use clock manipulation. In this case civstats was not down. I have played in about a dozen pitboss games that did not have fights over DM. Especially in this game, where teammates can share passwords to play for another, a team can wait to avoid a DM. If DM is allowed the game will take much longer to complete as you will have many turns where some player(s) will be waiting for the timer to expire in order to get the first move in the next turn to complete the DM.

I've run multiple games both ways, and truthfully haven't noticed much difference between the two. At worst, it is a turn per day, and given some players' inability to log in more often than once per day, it eventually becomes a wash anyway. I do know that the "DMs are allowed" type never had a "the DM rule has been violated and a reload is necessary" discussion that has halted this game for over a full day now, along with the unpleasantness that invariably goes along with it.

If the majority of teams want to change the rule now that can be done; but the origional rule should apply until that happens.

Indeed.

Shall we now open the voting for a future rule change, then? I submit the following amendment to the rules for consideration:

"Doublemoves (as previously defined) are allowed in all cases except when a declaration of war is made concurrently with either of the two moves."

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that CDZ votes in favor of the amendment.

PAL: ?
CFC: ?
STG: ?
CDZ: Yay

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I generally think that having a turn end before its allotted time is up is a complete luxury, i never expect someone to finish a turn. Taking say an hour over every turn is going to be better than stopping for 26-48 hours every few weeks when there is a DM.

We wouldnt have to stop every few weeks if people played by the rules and did not commit such blatant DM's. I agree that the fair reload would be at the noted turn rollover and allow Sonny to go before BCLG100 as he had when BCLG troops came close enough to be visible and to continue to go first in the turn until such a time as the battle between BCLG100 and Sonny is resolved. As I've stated before I believe you gained a definitive advantage by DMing Im not going to go into lots of detail on a public forum and you cannot possibly be aware of all options available to us, If you prove us wrong then I will eat my preverbial hat.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I've run multiple games both ways, and truthfully haven't noticed much difference between the two. At worst, it is a turn per day, and given some players' inability to log in more often than once per day, it eventually becomes a wash anyway. I do know that the "DMs are allowed" type never had a "the DM rule has been violated and a reload is necessary" discussion that has halted this game for over a full day now, along with the unpleasantness that invariably goes along with it.



Indeed.

Shall we now open the voting for a future rule change, then? I submit the following amendment to the rules for consideration:

"Doublemoves (as previously defined) are allowed in all cases except when a declaration of war is made concurrently with either of the two moves."

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that CDZ votes in favor of the amendment.

PAL: ?
CFC: ?
STG: ?
CDZ: Yay

I cant yet speak for the whole team but, personally, I am categorically against double moves being allowed in all cases. In fact in this game there is less of a reason for double moves as other team members are able to log in and take turns for team members who are unavailable at the end of a turn. I play in a number of Pitboss games all of which have an agreement that double moving is 99.9% of the time is unacceptable. My circumstances are that unfortunately most of my time is taken up with work and sleep and therefore am not able to pick and choose when I take my turn during the turnset. I am sure there are others who have similiar circumstances. If a double move free for all is to be accepted in this game then it would give an unfair advantage to those teams with more team members in terms of quantity and flexability. It would open the oppurtunity for these teams to sit until end of turns to be able to take advantage of this. I then becomes less of a game of strategy and judgement, which are the reasons I play, and more of a game of advantageous personal circumstances and deception.

 

[Sonnybonds]

BCLG100 How can you say you are against double turning and do a double turning at the same time???? sounds a bit stupid to me. then you say the DM doenst matter anything wich is a lie.

I vote for reload of the game. DM are not alowed in this game so i think its as clear as glas.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

OK, I will load the save from the rollover to 650BC. I note that sonny plays his turn nearly always around 1:00PM my local time, US Central Standard Time, GMT-6

I will load this tomorrow morning about 7:00 AM.

BCLG and his teammates (if they played the prior turn after sonny) need to wait for sonny to play the turn.

 

[BCLG100]

Is that 7am GMT whip? or GMT-6? i wasnt sure from the post.

A double turn for me is an act where someone has purposefully waited for the turn to end to play his turn and thus gain an advantage, i on the other hand had just woken up after being busy the night before so that was my first oppertunity to play the game. Playing the turn straight after seemed a logical idea when i thought id have to go into uni and then to watch the footy.

Maybe you and i play with different sets of people MD but currently im involved in 5 pitboss's, this is the only one that has a constant rule against DM's. Initially when people first realised that a DM was so powerful people took advantage of it but i trust the players im playing with to not purposefully wait around to play a turn and if they have to DM when its something so petty as moving units, not even attacking i generally don't care.