IOT Clash of Ideologies

[Ailedhoo]

IC: the Norse Union repeats; we have no interest in Wales and England, and a solution has been founded on Normandy of devolution that could mean no need to claim.

OOC: you need to take the pill yourself. 'Text wall, so I will not read' is not a excuse, especially since saying the 'discussion is over' is kind of dodging the whole war thing. This especially as the 'wall texts' seem to be a rather dodging of the issue, especially on regards to 'I didn't read this because it's too long' is rather... not the thing one would associate with political gaming, especially as it is not a critical consideration.

It is clear what I have placed in my ICs and to say 'it is too long wall text' is... questionable and rather a deliberate ignorant.

For a chilling to take place both parties need to chill, which includes the ability to not dodge issues.

IC: The Norse need ask Austria to consider; we do not want war and have demonstrated a desire for a White Peace.

In case of continued aggression we wish to consult Carthage and France on the matter, especially as a Norse peace would be a good thing to consider.

 

[Mosher]

The Norse will not have peace on the terms they propose. Austria is however prepared, as we have stated, to have peace with Carthage on its terms should the "Non-aggression with the Norse" requirement be excised, and if France states its affirmation of non-aggression and peace with Austria, thus committing itself to its precepts. This would allow for peace between us and hopefully for a future and separate peace with the Norse once they are prepared to jettison their outrageous and insulting attitudes, and once they are prepared to propose terms that are fitting with their actual situation.

How about the Norse return their German land to Austria and surrender whatever's going on in England?

 

[Ailedhoo]

West Germany was neutral land (not occupied by Austria) hence we cannot 'return' it back to Austria.

We have already declared that the 'claimant' to England was invented by Austria's French war plans. Normandy was our prime concern, not England and especially not Wales.

In the end we are setting a White Peace... and if the Austrians do no want us to have West Germany then we are willing to make it a independent state that is neutral to both Austria and the Norse, making it a Swizz buffer zone.

That might be a good idea...

 

[Mosher]

West Germany was neutral land (not occupied by Austria) hence we cannot 'return' it back to Austria.

We have already declared that the 'claimant' to England was invented by Austria's French war plans. Normandy was our prime concern, not England and especially not Wales.

In the end we are setting a White Peace... and if the Austrians do no want us to have West Germany then we are willing to make it a independent state that is neutral to both Austria and the Norse, making it a Swizz buffer zone.

That might be a good idea...

You'll return whatever I damn well say you return unless you want to be abandoned.

 

[Jehoshua]

How about the Norse return their German land to Austria and surrender whatever's going on in England?

That would be reasonable in any ordinary circumstance, however the Norses response to this suggestion from Carthage (to equivocate and make absurd proposals regarding a "neutral buffer") simply reinforces what we have concluded, which is that the Norse are only interested in their own imperial ambitions (thus why they allied with you against us, once it was clear Austria wouldn't appease their ambitions) and that they are not prepared to accept a peace in good faith which does not further their goals in this endeavour.

Thus even if they accept a reasonable peace under the threat of abandonment by Carthage, it would be clear to everyone that the Norse Union couldn't be trusted to maintain that peace, and wouldn't truly want it. Indeed the logical trajectory of the Norse attitude is clear in such a situation, the precedents well known. This, and their obvious ambitions which we have already noted, leads us to our stance that peace and non-aggression with the Norse Union is not tolerable at this time. We are however, as we have repeatedly noted, prepared to accept the remaining terms, which Carthage to its credit has negotiated in good faith with us, and which the French graciously accepted.

 

[Ailedhoo]

You'll return whatever I damn well say you return unless you want to be abandoned.

Our we allies or a vassal relationship? Austria treated France like a puppet...

We originally contacted you as a warning and a alliance of need, not to be controlled by Carthage.

Austria wants to invade you.

The Conference of Valencia is set a crusade with those following the Communist/Socialist ideology slots.

Your part in this was simple...

Anti Socialist Program

After discussion with Russia, a broad policy program that should be collectively adopted by our nations against the socialist menace has been developed pending the agreement of all parties.

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1: At present, efforts are underway to provoke a French attack on Carthages capital, ensuring the weakening of both powers in the resulting war, buying us time to develop our power and agenda.

2: Austria shall next year initiate the conquest of the Rhine, eliminating the internal socialist front in Europe, and fulfilling its immediate goal as noted elsewhere.

3: Upon the conquest of the Rhine, Spain, Scandinavia, Byzantium and Austria should prepare to swiftly eliminate the French socialists. With Scandinavia eliminating the British outposts, Byzantium the Arabian outposts, and Austria/Spain the French homeland. This will prevent Carthage gaining a foothold in Europe (via war with France presuming they commit to attacking Carthage) and leave the remaining French forces to be mopped up by Carthage, with that state having gained nothing and been severely weakened. Even if France does not invade Carthage, this phase should still be feasible.

4: When all states are suitable prepared, a campaign against Carthage can begin, with a suitable partition of African lands being developed in advance.

5: Convene to determine next phase of program, eliminate the Cape if they have assisted Carthage.

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~ note: To ensure the maximum success of this program, all states need to orient their domestic production towards this end, aiming at the development of robust industrial and military complexes to support the campaigns in question.

To confess our part is for selfish reasons: we had intended to unite the Norse peoples with the claimant of Normandy. We even talked about... betraying.
We were willing to fight for Normandy and Brittany... which Austria refuses and now greedily hordes onto the Rhine while fleeing entitled to treat Conference members as slaves.

I suggest you contact the International and inform them that the Norse Union is willing to open its ports and borders to communist/socialist troops in hope of a great war against the Austrian dominated crusade.

It makes more sense to join cause with you then the Austrians and the Papacy that hides among them.

Finally: try to conceal our identity from the Austrians etch. The Mongols are not found of the operative nature but they still focus on facing "the Red Menace" so it would be a gamble. Note that if you attack from the south we can storm the Austrians from the north. They are attacking you anyway... just be warned that the blockades were set to hinder you, hence we have many foes. If you could only convince China to join in we might have a greater chance...

If you'll support me militarily, I can promise you that you'd get the land you desire.

Attack from the north, and strike into their heartland.

This was the agreement we set with Carthage and the motive.

Clearly however Carthage is as bad as Austria when it comes to treating its allies.

As such we will cede West Germany to Austria, declare that Normandy will be a French issue which we hope they agree to our suggestions of Norman devolved respect, remind Austria that we have no interest in Wales, remind Austria that it was it who made the claims to England for us so that we have no plots for England and demand a apology from Carthage for a clear violation of protocol for their 'indirect' denouncement of sovereignty.


We are doing this on grounds that clearly we do not have a reliable ally but rather another would be world master who thinks of other nations as slaves. As such we cannot afford a plan B since that would require a alliance that tries to consider other members as fellow nations, instead of masters and servants.

O and we offer the non-aggression treaty to Austria with the peace. We declare that we will keep to a policy of international isolation barring trade once we leave the state of war.

 

[Jehoshua]

It seems that the Norse have renounced their relationship with Carthage, which would make any association of peace with the norse, to a peace with Carthage, somewhat questionable. We would like to discuss the ramifications of the Norse Unions disassociation further with Carthage.

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As to the released diplomatic correspondence from the Norse. Austria can firstly confirm that the anti-socialist program was produced at the Valencia conference several years ago, having been developed after the METH attack on the Confederacy and before the Allied States intervention in the resulting war (Carthage's presence in the programme was due to its membership in the Socialist Internationale and the perceived reality of that group constituting a hostile and aggressive socialist alliance in light of METH's unprovoked attack). Secondly, the Norse Union clearly has shown that Austria had no intention of immediately attacking Carthage as it has alleged, an intention of eventually initiating hostilities against it (due to concerns aforementioned) existed, but no imminent or indeed actual war plan other than a stated intention of some future action. It has likewise shown that its attack was purely motivated by its own territorial ambitions with regards to the Rhine and Normandy, as we have repeatedly said.

As to the states in the Valencia Conference. Needless to say the Norse Union has irrefutably confirmed that it was responsible for leaking diplomatic correspondence from the conference to third parties.

 

[Ailedhoo]

It seems that the Norse have renounced their relationship with Carthage, which would make any association of peace with the norse, to a peace with Carthage, somewhat questionable. We would like to discuss the ramifications of the Norse Unions disassociation further with Carthage.

We have declared our disappointment, not our renouncing of a alliance.

Also will Austria now accept the peace and return Denmark, Norway and Sweden back? We accept defeat and hence give West Germany as your prize, as well as once again remind that we have no interests in England and Wales. Normans are Norse but Normandy will be governed by France, who we trust will treat the Norman's Norse roots with respect.

 

[Lighthearter]

Annnnnnd Orders Locked For Real. Updating will commence tonight and tomorrow.

-L

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: And at that very hour the terms of peace have been agreed between Austria and Carthage (and by extension the French) .

 

[Mosher]

ooc: And at that very hour the terms of peace have been agreed between Austria and Carthage (and by extension the French) .

Our previous peace deal has been signed between Austria and Carthage (France by extension) excluding all aspects involving the Norse.

 

[Ailedhoo]

We would remind the world that we have not throw our alliance with Carthage away, just announced our disappointment of a statement.

We also remind Austria that we are willing to consider the peace demands. We are sad if they ignored the statement we made when revealing the information.

OOC: shame the lock came before Austria could have a chance to acknowledge our new offer... so that we could have our orders set for such instead of focusing on ignoring said statement and exaggerating the anger over a issue.

 

[arya126]

The Empire of the North notices that the Norse Union is still at war with an Austria that is no longer at war with anybody else. The Emperor prophesies a justified total annexation of the Norse by Austria for their betrayal.

For the sake of the Norse they better hope Odin and Thor and whatever other Gods they believe in are real.

 

[Red_Spy]

For those keeping track of the GNAW, it is now: 4th Int (Cuba, METH, Canada, and Carthage) VS. Allied States VS. EoN VS. 4th Int gain.

 

[Ailedhoo]

The Empire of the North notices that the Norse Union is still at war with an Austria that is no longer at war with anybody else. The Emperor prophesies a justified total annexation of the Norse by Austria for their betrayal.

For the sake of the Norse they better hope Odin and Thor and whatever other Gods they believe in are real.

W have been trying to get a peace going but we are awaiting for Austrian comment.

We will likely be issuing some currency into the mix however since we fear Austria has ignored our late offer.

 

[arya126]

Exactly my point. Austria has ignored your offer because there is no longer any need to peace out with you. They are free to make an example of what happens when a country betrays them.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Exactly my point. Austria has ignored your offer because there is no longer any need to peace out with you. They are free to make an example of what happens when a country betrays them.

Betray? We broke relations before the conflict and the France issue is still top of mind, especially in Austria's dislike of our defence pact with Carthage.

Still: enjoy being consumed by the reds! If you claim Austria has right to annex the Norse then may Newfoundland become red!

 

[Jehoshua]

Betray? We broke relations before the conflict and the France issue is still top of mind, especially in Austria's dislike of our defence pact with Carthage.

You're conveniently forgetting that the Norse have just shown themselves to have solicited a Carthaginian invasion of Austria by leaking diplomatic correspondence to them. Ergo you showed me and everyone evidence that Carthage attacked Austria solely at the Norse Unions prompting, with the Norse's attack on Austria itself being unprovoked and unilateral.

Carthage of course had a reason to attack Austria (since Austria gave impetus to a French decision to attack them), but with that evidence you put up, evidence that indicates they wouldn't of attacked if not for the Norses prompting and if the Norse had not already intended to attack Austria, not to mention the further proof contained therein that the Norses sole over-riding purpose is territorial gain at our expense your ratings have just precipitously declined in Vienna. Combined with the insults, and terrible attitude in negotiations, and your sudden disassociation form the restraining hand of Carthage, is it really any surprise that this culmination of betrayal on the part of the Norse has led Austria to ditch any desire for peace with the Norse Union?

 

[Ailedhoo]

You're conveniently forgetting that the Norse have just shown themselves to have solicited a Carthaginian invasion of Austria by leaking diplomatic correspondence to them. Ergo you showed me and everyone evidence that Carthage attacked Austria solely at the Norse Unions prompting, with the Norse's attack on Austria itself being unprovoked and unilateral.

We should have taken a screen; to point the image of the time the occurrence occurred. However we did it after Austria denounced our defence pact. That is what we can inform.

 

[Jehoshua]

I remind you that it was the Norse who broke the pact by refusing to uphold its terms, thus why I announced it was no longer in effect, because for a pact to exist it requires the acceptance of both parties, and the Norse had renounced their obligations.

Even if I had dismissed the pact as you continue to insist despite it being clearly evident that what I just said is true. The dismissal of a defensive pact does not consist of Austria attacking the Norse, nor is it grounds for war. Rather its the end of a voluntary co-operative agreement. Ergo, your attack was groundless, unilateral and aggressive along the lines I noted in the previous comment.

Incidentally If you had not attacked me than you would not be in your current situation, because I had no intention of attacking you. But such is life I suppose, and now you will for the first time in an IoT face the full consequences of invoking my displeasure.