Is a hamburger a sandwich?

[PhroX]

Or, more crucially, what if one put a hot (ground beef) beef patty between two slices of bread?

That may be what you meant to ask, PhroX, but do you mind if I make your phrasing more pointed. ("Roast beef" generally refers to a cut of beef different from that generally used to make up hamburgers, and often available as a "cold cut." So your question could be interpreted just to be asking, "what if the cold cut isn't cold?" But I want the more defining question: which is more determinative for a hamburger's difference from a sandwich, using a grilled ground beef patty as its inside, or using a bun as its outsides? Or are both necessary?

No, I was indeed asking what it would be if the "cold cut" wasn't cold. Putting hot roast beef, a steak, or a pork chop, in between two pieces of good quality bread is delicious, and somethign I do often. Yet, based on Tycho's definitions, I've no idea what to call it....

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A concoction that involves some amount of flour which is then cooked in some fashion produces something that may be called a wafer or a cookie or whatever else you choose to call it...but it is still effectively bread. An ice cream sandwich is a sandwich. That's why it is called an ice cream sandwich.

[/pedantic use of italics]

 

[Gori the Grey]

A concoction that involves some amount of flour . . .

That's why it is called . . .

Actually, I doubt the presence of flour in the outside casing of an ice cream sandwich has anything to do with its being regarded as a sandwich. I think an ice cream sandwich is a sandwich by the purely formal definition of sandwich: one thing between two of another thing.

But this is what I'm pressing to get nailed down more tightly: the formal definition, the material definition, and the relative importance of each.

In other places of our inquiry, I think flour is important: the near identity of buns with slices of bread is what makes those who are happy to call a hamburger a sandwich happy to call a hamburger a sandwich. And it's a problem, it seems to me, for those who see a distinction between a hamburger and a sandwich (i.e. how is a bun such a different thing than a slice of bread?)

And again, it's "called" a sandwich, but disallowed by Wiki's definition; that's what I'd like a Tycho or a BvBPL, or one of their ilk, to speak to.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah....I'm not really a good candidate, since I already endorsed the use of the verb to give access to the defining quality of a sandwich.

I was just looking to cast doubt on the definition of bread, as long as we are here.

You have to admit the Wiki definition can include the ice cream sandwich, if you are loose enough in your definition of bread.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I do have to admit that, now that you press me to.

And it will go into my own ruminations here. Perhaps I was too quick to regard an ice cream sandwich as a sandwich strictly by the formal definition. Perhaps the material definition is functional here; perhaps ice cream between, say, two slices of chocolate, would never have been felt to warrant the name sandwich.

We don't think of S'mores as sandwiches, I think. (He says, a propos of pretty much nothing.)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So, as long as the "what is bread?" can of worms is open and spilling its squirmy contents all over the place...what is this? For those who don't want to follow the link, it is internally a hamburger, with a Crispy Creme donut sliced in half in place of the bun. So, does the donut constitute bread?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Donuts are made with flour, I'll start by noting.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Donuts are made with flour, I'll start by noting.

My sister denied the KFC Doubledown sandwich status despite the breading on the chicken based on her assessment that it didn't count because it was fried rather than baked. I have not confronted her with this donut concoction yet, but if her line between the oven and the frier stands then it will be denied sandwich status as well.

 

[sophie]

Donuts are made with flour, I'll start by noting.

Allow me to introduce you to the Luther Burger: truly the most American of American sandwiches

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Allow me to introduce you to the Luther Burger: truly the most American of American sandwiches

Too thick to bite. I like the single Crispy Creme sliced in half version much better.

 

[onejayhawk]

I love this thread It has everything--metaphysics, semantics and cholesterol.

J

 

[Gori the Grey]

Allow me to introduce you to the Luther Burger: truly the most American of American sandwiches

I wonder to what extent Americanness will or should figure in our definition of (Brit.) Sandwiches and (Ger.) Hamburg - style beef.

@oneJay: this might be my favorite thread in 2 1/2 years on this forum, for the reasons you give.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I love this thread It has everything--metaphysics, semantics and cholesterol.

J

The balance may be swinging off towards the cholesterol though. Still got metaphysics and semantics, but those Krispy Kreme burgers will drop you like getting hit by a truck.

 

[PhroX]

Allow me to introduce you to the Luther Burger: truly the most American of American sandwiches

I don't get the point of these. I'd much rather have a normal burger, then have a donut (or three) for dessert....

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't get the point of these. I'd much rather have a normal burger, then have a donut (or three) for dessert....

If you have not tried it you just don't know. I didn't see the point either, but I do now.

 

[PhroX]

If you have not tried it you just don't know. I didn't see the point either, but I do now.

I have tried it. Well, minus the cheese, as I didn't have any when I made them. And I wasn't impressed. Burger and donuts are better separate.

 

[sophie]

Too thick to bite. I like the single Crispy Creme sliced in half version much better.

Not enough doughnut.

And spell Krispy Kreme correctly you dolt. Don't make me take your America card away

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have tried it. Well, minus the cheese, as I didn't have any when I made them. And I wasn't impressed. Burger and donuts are better separate.

To each their own. I found the sweetness to be a nice counterpoint. Same principle that makes ketchup popular.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I love this thread It has everything--metaphysics, semantics and cholesterol.

J

If I had to choose between semantics and (food with) cholesterol, I don't know where I'd come down, I love them both so much.

For all that, and for all that both donuts/doughnuts and hamburgers slathered in catsup/ketchup are among the food items most delightfully loaded with cholesterol, I don't believe I would enjoy a "Luther Burger." Hamburgers must be as much a tactile as a gustatory delight. I hate it when the burger squirms around on a bun that is too small for it or infirm. As ein Berliner would be.

More on issues of handling later in the thread.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not enough doughnut.

And spell Krispy Kreme correctly you dolt. Don't make me take your America card away

I already self corrected! Besides, as an alienated native I don't even have an America card, so now what?