Is a hamburger a sandwich?

[Gori the Grey]

You will get a statement that a few different sandwiches are available and a request for clarification on which one you would like.

And each one of those will be a thing.

If you come to my house and ask for a sandwich then you will get one.

And that one you bring me will be a thing.

Existence of a thing is not predicated upon the ability of waitstaff to comprehend you absent additional informAtion.

But the existence of a thing as a thing does.

That's poor reasoning, Gori.


I think you're just trying to be pedantic

Close! It starts with p.

 

[BvBPL]

Might as well say there is no such thing as a mammal.

A category is a thing despite not being concrete. The sandwich is abstract.

(Have you heard my new band, Abstract Sandwich?)

 

[Borachio]

You tell me (and I know myself) that if you go into a restaurant and ask for "a sandwich," the server will not know what thing you would like. Hence "a sandwich" is not a thing.

The server will know that you will be wanting something to eat whose basic shape consists of two slices of bread with a filling. (As opposed, for example, to a bowl of soup, or a motor car.)

Hence "a sandwich" is a thing.

It's just not generally a thing that by itself will get you served with a sandwich. Since it is too general a thing.

I can easily imagine a server losing patience with people who ask for something too generic, though, and just bringing you the first sandwich which they happen on.

Or maybe the stalest sandwich in the establishment that they know they'll have trouble shifting otherwise.

Could be a ham sandwich. Could be a cheese sandwich. Some things we just don't know, and can only guess at.

As for the "p" word, we have priestly, popular, purple, patriotic, pellucid, and pragmatic, currently on special offer.

Which one would you like the server to bring you?

 

[Lohrenswald]

What in the blazes is a thing to you, Gori?

 

[Gori the Grey]

What in the blazes is a thing to you, Gori?

If you ask for a sandwich, and provide no further information, your plate is going to sit empty. There will be no thing on it.

A category

I was trying to bring a certain word into greater prominence within this thread, one I think could be useful to our considerations.

I was trying to do so in a particular manner . . .

priestly, popular, purple, patriotic, pellucid, pragmatic?

Well, it wasn't one of those, but if those are all that is on the menu, I'll go with pellucid. Or pragmatic. I can't make up my mind. Why don't you just bring the drinks and come back in a minute.

 

[warpus]

You tell me (and I know myself) that if you go into a restaurant and ask for "a sandwich," the server will not know what thing you would like. Hence "a sandwich" is not a thing.

If I went to my mom's house and asked her to make me a sandwich, she would make me one without asking any other questions.

 

[sophie]

If I went to my mom's house and asked her to make me a sandwich, she would make me one without asking any other questions.

No, she would probably ask you what you want in it. You might give her some ingredients: cold cuts, lettuce, tomato, mayo. Or maybe you'll give her the name of a pre-defined sandwich, like a BLT or Reuben or Tuna Melt...or yes, a burger.

 

[Lohrenswald]

If you ask for a sandwich, and provide no further information, your plate is going to sit empty. There will be no thing on it

That's not true at all, granted that the sandwich maker doesn't ask more questions he'll take liberties and make some sort of sandwich. Maybe it'll be a hamburgersandwich, but my request would still be granted.

And this does not reveal what you think a thing is.

 

[warpus]

No, she would probably ask you what you want in it.

She'd make certain assumptions - I want rye bread, a spread, likely butter.. coldcut meat - either salami or ham. Cheese, if available. And cucumbers, tomatoes, and/or onions, if available.

In Polish culture, or at least in the part of Poland I am from "a sandwich" is a very specific thing. Mind you, you can also say "sandwich" to mean meta sandwiches, but nobody talks like that in day to day life.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

At the house, if asked for a sandwich I have a pretty good idea what is wanted because generally speaking we only have the makings on hand for one kind of sandwich at any one time. So at the house you do not have to be precise in your request because the circumstances determine the particular sandwich that you are going to get anyway.

I think one of those is the word Gori is looking for, and they are both relevant.

 

[Gori the Grey]

And this does not reveal what you think a thing is.

When I said

There is, in effect, no such thing as "a sandwich."

I was using thing in the following sense:

"A material object, an article, an item; a being or entity consisting of matter, or occupying space."

Straight out of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Is that really a controversial understanding of thing? Next we'll be asking what the meaning of is is.

Spoiler :

No, seriously, next we’ll be asking what the meaning of is is. I'm going to push this matter until we find ourselves asking what the meaning of is is. We’ve after all been asked whether a hamburger is a sandwich. You’d think that, in answering, we’d want to get our terms straight.

@Tim: nope; you've not got my p word either; though I'll take either of those, too. With an order of fries, please.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The meaning of is has been thoroughly investigated elsewhere. I think we should move on to a, which approaches the crux of our problem.

When presented with "Is a hamburger a sandwich" it appears that some people read it as "the sandwich", or somehow expanded the meaning of a in that general direction.

 

[Gori the Grey]

"Is" is going to prove important, too. (But, after I posted, I saw what you're referring to, Kyr's post on "is".)

But I'll happily thrash through "a" first.

 

[aelf]

Well, the thing is that hamburgersandwiches are a subset of sandwiches, so there naturally wouldn't be equivalence. A sandwich doesn't have to imply a hamburgersandwich, but a hamburgersandwich impies a sandwich.

This has no practical value. To a lot of people, both ordering a sandwich and getting a burger and ordering a burger and getting a sandwich would feel wrong. In that sense, there is often a clear practical difference between a sandwich and a burger, even if as an idea burgers are merely a subset of sandwiches. Few people would fail to register that they did not get what they originally thought of when they get a sandwich in lieu of a burger.

 

[Takhisis]

But stop eating sandwiches, they're stupid.

What in the blazes is a Schawarma?

A gift sent from heaven.

I'm with Owen on this Schawambla thing being a wrap rather than a sandwich

Of course it is!

PS. Lord Sandwich - which I believe was an Englishman ( from whom the name derives - must be turning in his grave by now ! )

What sort of properly bred Englishman would turn in his grave?

Kanapka

I thought you'd've gone for sandwicza or some other incredibly original word.

Except semantically a hamburger is accepted as a sandwich in the US. That's the whole point of this thread. It's not our fault if the rest of the world has it all wrong for no logical reason.

You got it wrong from the Germans. A hamburger is a type of sandwich!

I think I almost know enough about sandwiches to create a venn diagram of sandwiches and wraps and meta versions thereof. But I don't really feel like doing that..

Do it.

What in the blazes is a thing to you, Gori?

We need another thread for that.

 

[Gori the Grey]

To a lot of people, both ordering a sandwich and getting a burger and ordering a burger and getting a sandwich would feel wrong.

If I understand the OP aright, at Wendy's, you can order a burger, get a sandwich, and feel perfectly satisfied with how they filled your order.

That is, if "burger," here, is a "hamburger." Is a burger a hamburger? Another question to add to the literally dozens* I have for when the thread slows down.

Spoiler :

*If by "dozens" you mean two or three.

 

[BvBPL]

I was using thing in the following sense:

"A material object, an article, an item; a being or entity consisting of matter, or occupying space."

Straight out of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Is that really a controversial understanding of thing? Next we'll be asking what the meaning of is is.

To be (that is, "is") is to have a state of being.

A concrete thing, like a French dip, can have the state of being of belonging to an abstract group, like the classification of sandwiches.

 

[Gori the Grey]

We need another thread for that.

No, I've answered in this thread. Well half answered.

I said that when I said

There is, in effect, no such thing as "a sandwich."

I understood thing meaning "a material object, an object, an item."

Let me fully answer now.

When I said that

But this troubles our inquiry. If there is no such thing as a sandwich, how could a hamburger be one?

I was understanding thing in the following sense:

"That which exists individually (in the most general sense, in fact or in idea); that which is or may be in any way an object of perception, knowledge, or thought; an entity, a being"

Straight out of the Oxford English Dictionary.

As a result, as BvBPL so astutely points out:

A concrete thing, like a French dip, can have the state of being of belonging to an abstract group, like the classification of sandwiches.

What a thing this language is! It's as though we can use a particular word for a broad classification, and then that exact same word for one item within that broader category.

But I got more business with you Mr. BvBPL. For starters, you shouldn't use a word in its own definition.

To be (that is, "is") is to have a state of being

That's just going to get us going around in circles.

 

[Perfection]

You tell me (and I know myself) that if you go into a restaurant and ask for "a sandwich," the server will not know what thing you would like. Hence "a sandwich" is not a thing.

You tell me (and I know myself) that if you go into a restaurant and ask for "a thing," the server will not know what thing you would like. Hence "a thing" is not a thing.

 

[Takhisis]

Something is not itself? This is some serious metaphysics going on at this point. I formally tequest that the thread be turned into RD.