Is Asexuality a choice?

[MobBoss]

Yes. They are choosing to have sex with women and present themselves as heterosexual. That is not the same as having sexual desire for women, it is not the same as not having sexual desire for men.

Unless you are a mind reader, how do you know they havent actually chosen to be heterosexual? Especially in Haggards case?

You seem to allege he doesnt have sexual desire for his wife. How do you know this? You seem also to allege that he has a continuing sexual desire for men? Again..how do you know?

I don't know if they are homosexual.

Ding. We have a winna.

I think it's blatantly obvious that they have sexual desire for men.

Blantently obvious? How on earth do you get that from Craigs example? Cause all men that tap toes in the crapper are 'blatently obviously' having sexual desire for men?

Sorry, but thats just laughable. I think the case is certainly stronger for Haggard, but with Craig? Not so much.

(Why for the love of meth would a man pay another man for sex if he did not have sexual desire for that man? Just for the lulz?)

I dont presume to know what goes on in a kooks mind.

They are making a choice about their lifestyle. They are choosing actions. That is different from choosing desires or sexual impulses.

And yet, desire and impulses can also be controlled, aimed and adjusted......

I guess the bottom line is can one choose to stop a desire? I say absolutely.

There is a HUGE difference between 'choosing' your sexuality, and decided to dress up as goth for your college years. Especially when trying to find yourself at that age. While I can see people in your "U" district expressing themselves in many different ways, it's pretty minor compared to choosing your sexuality.

Funny you should bring that up. Isnt there a number of people who 'choose' to experiment with their sexuality in College in trying to find themself at that age? Perhaps find out they dont like it and never really try it again?

They may be choosing to live a heterosexual life, but their base impulses (whether or not to be attracted to the same gender as they are) is not a choice.

How can you speak to someones base impulses that you dont even know?

And again, I submit, that a persons 'base impulses' can indeed be changed.

So if you think they're heterosexual, fine. But hasn't their actions shown that they at least flirt with being bi-sexual, if not outright homosexual?

In Haggards case, yes. In Craigs case, I dont think there is enough evidence either way.

 

[MobBoss]

Sure, but have you ever heard of someone who was able to re-program him/her-self to not feel any sexual attraction, to either of the genders?

Has such a thing been documented by medical professionals? If not, why should we assume that such a thing is possible? Surely if it were, it would be documented, and you'd have some links for me.

Again, not everything about mental health has indeed be 'documented', 'has links' or is even known absolutely. I am not a mental health professional, although my wife is indeed pursuing that career field. I would need to ask her if she ever heard about that in her studies. Or, if you are that interested, you yourself can pursue it.

 

[warpus]

Again, not everything about mental health has indeed be 'documented', 'has links' or is even known absolutely. I am not a mental health professional, although my wife is indeed pursuing that career field. I would need to ask her if she ever heard about that in her studies. Or, if you are that interested, you yourself can pursue it.

Hey, you're the one saying that such a thing is possible. If it's possible, and it happens, it should be documented, and it should be easy enough to find a link to some sort of a study.

I am not going to go out of my way to look for supporting documentation for *your* position.

 

[MobBoss]

Hey, you're the one saying that such a thing is possible. If it's possible, and it happens, it should be documented, and it should be easy enough to find a link to some sort of a study.

I am not going to go out of my way to look for supporting documentation for *your* position.

I dont think I have to lecture you in what 'in my opinion' actually means do I?

I could take the inverse and say:

Hey, you're the one saying that such a thing is impossible. If it's impossible, and it cant happen, it should be documented, and it should be easy enough to find a link to some sort of a study.

So? Are you prepared to do this? No?

Ok then.

 

[LucyDuke]

Unless you are a mind reader, how do you know they havent actually chosen to be heterosexual? Especially in Haggards case?

You seem to allege he doesnt have sexual desire for his wife. How do you know this? You seem also to allege that he has a continuing sexual desire for men? Again..how do you know?

They haven't chosen to be heterosexual because heterosexuality is not a choice. Heterosexual activity can be a choice. That is clearly what they have chosen. They may well (and probably do) want to be heterosexual, but that doesn't erase their impulses. These men would have erased those impulses, which they have denounced, if they had been able.

I don't know if he has sexual desire for his wife. I'm not interested in his sexual desire for his wife. I can't prove that today he has sexual desire for men, but if we had some way of verifying it, I wouldn't hesitate to bet quite a lot that he does. I believe this because of the track record of "curing homosexuality".

Ding. We have a winna.

That statement proves that I don't know them personally. I don't know if you are heterosexual, and I know you better than I know Ted Haggard (not that I know you well, but I've spent a kind of ridiculous amount of my life on you ). I imagine it's very likely, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I certainly don't know.

Moreover, I don't think male-male sexual desire should always be considered homosexuality. It could be bisexuality. I'll repeat, I know they have had homosexual desires. Because they had homosexual sex. One of them paid for it. Repeatedly. That is not a fluke.

Blantently obvious? How on earth do you get that from Craigs example? Cause all men that tap toes in the crapper are 'blatently obviously' having sexual desire for men?

Sorry, but thats just laughable. I think the case is certainly stronger for Haggard, but with Craig? Not so much.

Sure, it's easier to challenge Craig. You're going to require a much higher standard than others, underscored by your argument that these men have chosen whatever sexual desires they have. This is just personal bias getting in the way.

You don't argue with Haggard.

I dont presume to know what goes on in a kooks mind.

I have a very good explanation. It's simple too.

And yet, desire and impulses can also be controlled, aimed and adjusted......

I guess the bottom line is can one choose to stop a desire? I say absolutely.

This is what we've been disagreeing about since the start. They are making decisions about their lifestyles, do you agree? They are making decisions about their actions. We just disagree about whether their desires and impluses are decisions... and obviously we'll continue to disagree.

Even in a case where a man has nothing (more than sexual release) to gain and everything to lose by paying another man for sex, you maintain that he did that because he chose to be sexually attracted to men... but you can't explain why. I don't think we have much left to discuss here.

Funny you should bring that up. Isnt there a number of people who 'choose' to experiment with their sexuality in College in trying to find themself at that age? Perhaps find out they dont like it and never really try it again?

They choose to sexually pursue different folks, sure. Pursuing sex isn't sexual desire, and sex isn't sexual desire.

Most sexually active people have tried one or two or more sexual things that they find out they don't like and never really try again. Is not liking <insert least favorite sexual position> a choice? Or is it just that your leg cramps and spoils the fun?

 

[El_Machinae]

I didn't choose to like tomatos, but I choose to use ketchup. Sheesh

 

[MobBoss]

I'll repeat, I know they have had homosexual desires. Because they had homosexual sex. One of them paid for it. Repeatedly. That is not a fluke.

You keep saying 'they'....what proof do you offer that Craig has indeed had homosexual sex? Cause all I am aware of is the toe tapping incident....which didnt involve sex at all.

You don't argue with Haggard.

Because Haggard confessed to improper sexual contact with the gay massage guy. Craig? Not so much. Nor has there been any real corrobative evidence that Craig has, that I know of at least.

They choose to sexually pursue different folks, sure. Pursuing sex isn't sexual desire, and sex isn't sexual desire.

Errrr. Huh?

You just turned your own arguement on its ear by saying that. For example:

If 'pursing sex isnt sexual desire' then Haggard wasnt necessarily expressing sexual desire by pursuing the gay dude.....right?

Most sexually active people have tried one or two or more sexual things that they find out they don't like and never really try again.

Does it mean they are homosexual? Does it mean they didnt have a choice over trying those things out? Or did they?

I didn't choose to like tomatos, but I choose to use ketchup. Sheesh

Ketchup isnt just tomatos. It has a lot of other stuff added in (sugar, etc.).

And I did choose to like tomatos, and even unto this day, I choose when I want a tomato and when I dont.

 

[LucyDuke]

You keep saying 'they'....what proof do you offer that Craig has indeed had homosexual sex? Cause all I am aware of is the toe tapping incident....which didnt involve sex at all.

I don't need proof that Larry Craig had sex with men to make the case that prominently anti-gay men have in fact had sex with men on the down-low. Prominently anti-gay men having sex with men on the down-low is a pretty good indicator to me that men do not get to choose whether they will have sexual desire for men, as a prominently anti-gay man would certainly choose to not have sexual desire for men.

Because Haggard confessed to improper sexual contact with the gay massage guy. Craig? Not so much. Nor has there been any real corrobative evidence that Craig has, that I know of at least.

So you don't disagree that it's blatantly obvious that Haggard has had sexual desires for men, despite the fact that Haggard has every reason to choose not to have sexual desires for men.

Errrr. Huh?

You just turned your own arguement on its ear by saying that. For example:

If 'pursing sex isnt sexual desire' then Haggard wasnt necessarily expressing sexual desire by pursuing the gay dude.....right?

No, I think this is contributing to our communication gap here. Of course pursuing sex isn't sexual desire. Pursuing sex is action, sexual desire is impulse. You must make a choice to pursue sex, you don't need to make a choice to experience the sexual desire that may inspire you to pursue sex. The pursuit of sex is a choice that is usually an expression of sexual desire.

Does it mean they are homosexual? Does it mean they didnt have a choice over trying those things out? Or did they?

Do I really need to tell you that sexual experimentation doesn't make you homosexual? Really? Sexual experimentation isn't just having sex with different people, you know. I even gave the position example, I thought that would make things clear without being too explicit.

And unless someone's been raped, they generally get to choose what sex they will try. That's not the same as choosing to like the things they try. They may find out they like something they choose to try.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this one, sorry.

Ketchup isnt just tomatos. It has a lot of other stuff added in (sugar, etc.).

And I did choose to like tomatos, and even unto this day, I choose when I want a tomato and when I dont.

Way to miss his point.

 

[Turner]

Funny you should bring that up. Isnt there a number of people who 'choose' to experiment with their sexuality in College in trying to find themself at that age? Perhaps find out they dont like it and never really try it again?

Not funny at all. It's all part of growing up and learning who you are. You ask yourself if maybe this way is good for you. Maybe you screw up the courage and try it out. Maybe not. But the point is, you're trying different things to find out what it is you're attracted too.

Some people are born knowing they're homosexual. Maybe they embrace it. Maybe they fight it and lie to themselves. Maybe they just take one day at a time. But there are also those who are going along, minding their own business, and suddenly realize that yes they are homo/heterosexual, when in the past they've believe they're the opposite.

How can you speak to someones base impulses that you dont even know?

And how do you know I don't know them? Anyways, I wasn't the one caught soliciting homosexual favors in the Men's room in an international airport.

And again, I submit, that a persons 'base impulses' can indeed be changed.

I don't think so. I've certainly spent enough time discovering who I am, and while I may have been going down a path that was not true to me, all that means is I've been lying to myself. I am what I am, and what I was born to be. Nothing can change that. Maybe in the future people will be able to custom order their sexuality, but right now it's simply not possible. No amount of praying, wishing, hoping, or planning can change what you are. If you think you can, you're lying to yourself.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't need proof that Larry Craig had sex with men to make the case that prominently anti-gay men have in fact had sex with men on the down-low.

Ah, I see. So if one has ever done, they are all guilty of it.

Why dont we simply cut to the chase and you admit there isnt any real proof that Craig has indeed had homsexual sex and let it be.

Prominently anti-gay men having sex with men on the down-low is a pretty good indicator to me that men do not get to choose whether they will have sexual desire for men, as a prominently anti-gay man would certainly choose to not have sexual desire for men.

I know of a lot of 'anti-gay' men who have not had sex with men. There are no absolutes here....I asked for proof...you gave me rhetoric instead. You can allege crap until the cows come home...its not proof of anything.

So you don't disagree that it's blatantly obvious that Haggard has had sexual desires for men, despite the fact that Haggard has every reason to choose not to have sexual desires for men.

I dont presume to know the inner workings of his mind, no.

Do I really need to tell you that sexual experimentation doesn't make you homosexual? Really? Sexual experimentation isn't just having sex with different people, you know. I even gave the position example, I thought that would make things clear without being too explicit.

So I guess if you engage in same gender sex, its not really homosexuality unless you like it eh?

Not funny at all. It's all part of growing up and learning who you are. You ask yourself if maybe this way is good for you. Maybe you screw up the courage and try it out. Maybe not. But the point is, you're trying different things to find out what it is you're attracted too.

Arent people making choices in trying those different things to find out what they like?

And how do you know I don't know them? Anyways, I wasn't the one caught soliciting homosexual favors in the Men's room in an international airport.

Do you know Larry Craig? Best friend? Known him forever?

In not then my point stands.

He got arrested for tapping his foot in the crapper. Now, if he had actually been having homosexual sex in that bathroom you may have a point. But thats not the case.

I don't think so. I've certainly spent enough time discovering who I am, and while I may have been going down a path that was not true to me, all that means is I've been lying to myself.

How do you know your simply not lying to yourself some more once you think you have discovered yourself?

I am what I am, and what I was born to be. Nothing can change that.

Unless of course you have a new relevation about life somewhere down the road.

What if you had said that while lying to yourself prior to your epiphany?

Maybe in the future people will be able to custom order their sexuality, but right now it's simply not possible. No amount of praying, wishing, hoping, or planning can change what you are. If you think you can, you're lying to yourself.

How many times in a persons life can they lie to themselves but still think they are telling themselves the truth?

And please realize, that by your own opinion here, Alcoholics Anonymous shouldnt ever work and people shouldnt try to change themselves or better their lives. Drunks should just remain drunk, apparently.

In other words, I strongly disagree with you. People indeed can change, and often do, and are happier for it.

 

[Turner]

Arent people making choices in trying those different things to find out what they like?

Way to completely miss the point!

Do you know Larry Craig? Best friend? Known him forever?

You have no way of knowing one way or the other. Fer cryin' out loud....it's an internet forum! I could be Larry Craig for all you know!

In not then my point stands.

Not really.

He got arrested for tapping his foot in the crapper. Now, if he had actually been having homosexual sex in that bathroom you may have a point. But thats not the case.

Again, way to selectively read what is written. I never said he was arrested for homosexual sex in a bathroom.

How do you know your simply not lying to yourself some more once you think you have discovered yourself?

Unless of course you have a new relevation about life somewhere down the road.

What if you had said that while lying to yourself prior to your epiphany?

That's what self discovery is about.

How many times in a persons life can they lie to themselves but still think they are telling themselves the truth?

I don't know, how many?

And please realize, that by your own opinion here, Alcoholics Anonymous shouldnt ever work and people shouldnt try to change themselves or better their lives. Drunks should just remain drunk, apparently.

And please realize, that's a strawman. There's a big difference between having a drug or alcohol problem and getting it fixed and what your sexual orientation is.

In other words, I strongly disagree with you. People indeed can change, and often do, and are happier for it.

People can and do change. But that doesn't mean that they can tear apart the inner workings of the minds and their sexuality and suddenly decide that they're something that's completely contrary to their genetic coding. Sure, they can be programmed to be homosexual and have a wife and kids and intercourse every other Thursday, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're wired to be homosexual. It would be like a diabetic deciding that they can ignore their diabetes and eat whatever they want....sure, they can do that, but they're only hurting themselves in the long run.

 

[LightFang]

And please realize, that by your own opinion here, Alcoholics Anonymous shouldnt ever work and people shouldnt try to change themselves or better their lives. Drunks should just remain drunk, apparently.

You can be genetically predisposed to alcoholism. You can't change your nature. But you can choose whether to touch that bottle. I mean, they say you never stop being an alcoholic--you just stop drinking (unless that's just a myth I heard. )

In other words, I strongly disagree with you. People indeed can change, and often do, and are happier for it.

Way to throw in a slight against homosexuality there. Are happier for it eh? I don't think repressing base desires makes people very happy!

 

[MobBoss]

Way to completely miss the point!

Not an answer to my question.

You have no way of knowing one way or the other. Fer cryin' out loud....it's an internet forum! I could be Larry Craig for all you know!

In that case, I am willing to bet (a) you dont know Craig and (b) you simply are not Craig.

Not really.

Since you are neither (a) nor (b) yeah...it does.

Again, way to selectively read what is written. I never said he was arrested for homosexual sex in a bathroom.

Lucy was the one saying he had homosexual sex. I asked for some kind of evidence to support it. None was given.

That's what self discovery is about.

Does self discovery ever really end? Or does it possibly continue, right up to the point you die? If it does continue, your earlier comment is in error.

I don't know, how many?

I can only imagine that in this case, ones milage will vary.

And please realize, that's a strawman. There's a big difference between having a drug or alcohol problem and getting it fixed and what your sexual orientation is.

The comment was in reference to your own comment in regards to people not changing, ever. Let me quote it again:

Maybe in the future people will be able to custom order their sexuality, but right now it's simply not possible. No amount of praying, wishing, hoping, or planning can change what you are. If you think you can, you're lying to yourself.

People can and do change.

Now wait a sec. Didnt you just say no amount of praying, wishing, hoping or planning can change what you are? And if you think you can change, you're lying to yourself?

Which is it? You cant change and if you think you can your're simply lying....or you can indeed change?

Or will you simply call this a strawman and move on?

But that doesn't mean that they can tear apart the inner workings of the minds and their sexuality and suddenly decide that they're something that's completely contrary to their genetic coding.

Errr. You have proof of this 'genetic coding' determining sexuality do you? Cause last I checked, science hasnt really pinpointed that yet. So, if you have found it...its big news!!!

Sure, they can be programmed to be homosexual and have a wife and kids and intercourse every other Thursday, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're wired to be homosexual. It would be like a diabetic deciding that they can ignore their diabetes and eat whatever they want....sure, they can do that, but they're only hurting themselves in the long run.

Not really a good comparison...ones mental in aspect, the other physiological.

Ever watch the Manchurian Candidate? Great film.

You can be genetically predisposed to alcoholism. You can't change your nature. But you can choose whether to touch that bottle. I mean, they say you never stop being an alcoholic--you just stop drinking (unless that's just a myth I heard. )

And...wait for it...you can also completely remove the desire for alcohol. You can make a choice to overcome that predisposition. Thats the great thing about people - they actually CAN make choices in life to overcome such things.



Way to throw in a slight against homosexuality there. Are happier for it eh? I don't think repressing base desires makes people very happy![/QUOTE]

 

[LucyDuke]

Ah, I see. So if one has ever done, they are all guilty of it.

Why dont we simply cut to the chase and you admit there isnt any real proof that Craig has indeed had homsexual sex and let it be.

I know of a lot of 'anti-gay' men who have not had sex with men. There are no absolutes here....I asked for proof...you gave me rhetoric instead. You can allege crap until the cows come home...its not proof of anything.

I dont presume to know the inner workings of his mind, no.

I haven't even remotely suggested that "all" prominently anti-gay men have had sex with men. That's a ridiculous straw man. Again, I don't need proof that Larry Craig is one of the prominently anti-gay men that have had sex with men. He is an example. If you don't like that example without proof, google another. There are enough. You won't let him go, I'm sure, but you could prove that there was never such a person as Larry Craig and it wouldn't detract from my case at all.

I know several anti-gay men that have not had sex with men, too. The point is that some anti-gay men in the public eye who use their anti-gay platform to advance their careers have in fact had sex with men. These are the last people on earth you would expect to choose to be sexually attracted to men. There is no good explanation for this choice of sexual attraction that you insist they have made. I have a very good explanation for what has happened: they haven't made a choice of sexual attraction. It doesn't take a brain surgeon here, Mobby.

So I guess if you engage in same gender sex, its not really homosexuality unless you like it eh?

Dude, you didn't even chop that quote properly to spin it! Here, I'll repeat myself for you:

Sexual experimentation isn't just having sex with different people, you know.

A person could engage in sexual experimentation with hisher spouse of fifty years. A new position can be sexual experimentation. A new location can be sexual experimentation. A new toy can be sexual experimentation. "Experimentation" does not include the word "gay".

In other words, I strongly disagree with you. People indeed can change, and often do, and are happier for it.

Of course people can change. There are a lot of things people can change about themselves. Their sexual inclination is not one of them.

 

[Rusted Armor]

Not a choice, but in a sense not at birth either. Most likely as a child the person had been influenced by the environment the child lived in.

 

[MobBoss]

I haven't even remotely suggested that "all" prominently anti-gay men have had sex with men. That's a ridiculous straw man.

Its also a straw man to assume someone is homosexual simply because they are anti-gay based upon other peoples actions and not theirs individually. Didnt slow you down from using it however.

I just dont like the tactic of pointing the finger and yelling strawman every time someone does that. Slows down the discussion too much in my opinion.

Again, I don't need proof that Larry Craig is one of the prominently anti-gay men that have had sex with men. He is an example.

He isnt an example unless you have proof he is indeed gay and has had homosexual sex with other men. And getting arrested for toe tapper in a crapper isnt exactly proof of that. Its proof he tapped his toe in a crapper next to a cop. Did he have sex with this cop? No. Ergo, I see a distinct lack of any such fact or proof to back up your assertion.

If you don't like that example without proof, google another. There are enough. You won't let him go, I'm sure, but you could prove that there was never such a person as Larry Craig and it wouldn't detract from my case at all.

You were the one that made the original allegation about him, not me. All your waffling here is from me asking you for proof of something you cant prove, since there isnt any proof of it in the public record.

Thats about it.

A person could engage in sexual experimentation with hisher spouse of fifty years. A new position can be sexual experimentation. A new location can be sexual experimentation. A new toy can be sexual experimentation. "Experimentation" does not include the word "gay".

Pardon me. Let me rephrase it for you then:

So I guess if you engage in same gender sex experimentation, its not really homosexuality unless you like it eh?

Fixed it for you. Feel free to comment all you want.

Of course people can change. There are a lot of things people can change about themselves. Their sexual inclination is not one of them.

And I disagree.

 

[Berzerker]

when did you choose?

 

[LucyDuke]

Its also a straw man to assume someone is homosexual simply because they are anti-gay based upon other peoples actions and not theirs individually. Didnt slow you down from using it however.

I just dont like the tactic of pointing the finger and yelling strawman every time someone does that. Slows down the discussion too much in my opinion.

Yeah, except I haven't assumed anybody is homosexual because they are anti-gay. Don't make things up.

Next?

He isnt an example unless you have proof he is indeed gay and has had homosexual sex with other men. And getting arrested for toe tapper in a crapper isnt exactly proof of that. Its proof he tapped his toe in a crapper next to a cop. Did he have sex with this cop? No. Ergo, I see a distinct lack of any such fact or proof to back up your assertion.

You were the one that made the original allegation about him, not me. All your waffling here is from me asking you for proof of something you cant prove, since there isnt any proof of it in the public record.

Thats about it.

Larry Craig does not matter. Strike Larry Craig from the discussion and nothing changes. If you want, I'll copy-paste everything but put "Bob Allen" in place of Larry Craig. Ted Haggard alone is enough. But keep objecting that we don't KNOW Larry Craig wanted the mansex that he pled guilty to soliciting, if that's all you've got.

Pardon me. Let me rephrase it for you then:

Fixed it for you. Feel free to comment all you want.

That's arguable either way on semantics. Were you trying to make some kind of point?

And I disagree.

I know you disagree that their sexual inclination is not one of them. I was just expressing support for the claim that people can change some things about themselves. Sheesh.

 

[MobBoss]

Yeah, except I haven't assumed anybody is homosexual because they are anti-gay. Don't make things up.

I am not making things up. You have been alledging Craig is a homosexual all throughout this thread. The anti-gay thing was what you offered in support of that. Do you now deny that?

Larry Craig does not matter.

Of course he doesnt matter....now that I have asked for proof from you concerning your comments in regards to him.

And people say I have a hard time admitting errror. /sheesh.

 

[Turner]

Ah, typical MobBoss answer. You ignore what you don't understand. Throw up a couple of strawmen to make yourself look like you're actually arguing the point.

MobBoss....you really should learn how do discuss the topic and not throw out irrelevancies that may look good but actually have little bearing on the topic at hand. When you learn that, let me know and maybe we can have a decent discussion.