And if there is a general election and the outcome is that Parliament is virtually unchanged from its current state? You'd have the perfect constitutional chaos with Remain and Leave both claiming full democratic legitimacy.
Is Britain about to leave the EU?
- Thread starter Mega Tsunami
- Start date
- Status
And if there is a general election and the outcome is that Parliament is virtually unchanged from its current state? You'd have the perfect constitutional chaos with Remain and Leave both claiming full democratic legitimacy.
Yes, well, the campaigning also included a heavy dose of ‘ignoring people who actually know what they're talking about is the smart thing to do’.
Snerk
Smeghead
Is there any real wish for electoral reform, such as another referendum for first past the post, among British voters these days?
Afaik they already voted against changing it (not sure why, cause it is a terrible system, but maybe many just didn't want ukip to have the logical amount of mps for their vote share?), so i suppose a new referendum won't happen anytime soon.
Snerk
Smeghead
Yes there was a referendum in 2011. But I'm wondering how the atmosphere is today among the british electorate when it comes to reform in this matter.
Chukchi Husky
Lone Wolf
I've heard a reason why it shouldn't be changed, it's because the current system is the most democratic in the world.
Silurian
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,567
In the referendum West Oxfordshire, in which Wintney falls, voted 53.7% too remain. The new Tory MP supports Brexit.
How much the 20000 reduction in the Tory majority was due to Brexit is difficult to say but would have been a factor.
From The Telegraph
""The Conservatives have held on to David Cameron's old parliamentary seat in Witney, despite seeing their majority slashed by 20,000 after a strong show from the Liberal Democrats.
Barrister Robert Courts secured victory over Lib Dem Liz Leffman, but the Tory majority was reduced from more than 25,000 at last year's general election to just 5,702.""
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-david-camerons-witney-seat-as-lib-dems-surg/
It is probable that both pro and anti Brexit MPs will be penalised by their electorate.
Cameron held the referendum as a means of fending off UKIP. Labour will also loose votes to UKIP but it is probable that the Conservatives loses will be greater.
The handling of the Brexit process upto any snap election following a no confidence vote, by the MPs, would also be a factor. People will be asking what Brexit means Brexit means.
Some constituency parties, especially conservative ones, may want to change their candidate. The new candidate would loose the advantage that the sitting MP has. Replacing a sitting MP would also lead to discontent in the local party, so less people would be out supporting the new candidate. The sitting MP will also suffer from this if they are strongly pro or anti Brexit.
The Conservatives only have a majority of 12 which they could loose in a snap general election, most likely resulting in a hung Parliament. The SNP and Lib Dems will be campaigning against Brexit or for a very soft Brexit. So there could be a coalition government with a democratic mandate to stop Brexit.
How much the 20000 reduction in the Tory majority was due to Brexit is difficult to say but would have been a factor.
From The Telegraph
""The Conservatives have held on to David Cameron's old parliamentary seat in Witney, despite seeing their majority slashed by 20,000 after a strong show from the Liberal Democrats.
Barrister Robert Courts secured victory over Lib Dem Liz Leffman, but the Tory majority was reduced from more than 25,000 at last year's general election to just 5,702.""
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-david-camerons-witney-seat-as-lib-dems-surg/
It is probable that both pro and anti Brexit MPs will be penalised by their electorate.
Cameron held the referendum as a means of fending off UKIP. Labour will also loose votes to UKIP but it is probable that the Conservatives loses will be greater.
The handling of the Brexit process upto any snap election following a no confidence vote, by the MPs, would also be a factor. People will be asking what Brexit means Brexit means.
Some constituency parties, especially conservative ones, may want to change their candidate. The new candidate would loose the advantage that the sitting MP has. Replacing a sitting MP would also lead to discontent in the local party, so less people would be out supporting the new candidate. The sitting MP will also suffer from this if they are strongly pro or anti Brexit.
The Conservatives only have a majority of 12 which they could loose in a snap general election, most likely resulting in a hung Parliament. The SNP and Lib Dems will be campaigning against Brexit or for a very soft Brexit. So there could be a coalition government with a democratic mandate to stop Brexit.
Mega Tsunami
Emperor
Most of us prefer this system, warts and all. It keeps out extremist parties such as the BNP etc.
The main reason UKIP flourished was because of the PR system of the EU that was forced upon us. Under fptp there might not have been any UKIP MEPs at all, but instead we had them popping up all over the place, having their say in the EU parliament, thus increasing everyone’s awareness of them. And it snowballed from there to things like free primetime adverts (part political broadcasts), appearances on Question Time etc. etc.
If we had been allowed to use our own fptp for our MEPs, then UKIP would not have got anywhere IMO, Cameron would not have felt the need to have a referendum and sweet, sweet irony, we would still be in the EU.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Which is utter and complete bollocks. A system where it is theoretically possible to have only two people represented for the whole constituency (if, say, everyone in the constituency ran for MP and yet someone persuaded another voter to vote for them, thus gaining a decisive plurality) and where routinely half or over half the people are not appropriately represented by their MP is decidedly not very democratic. Unless you are okay with the whole system being struck down and appointing a single MP for the whole country. That's how profoundly stupid the system is.
Now its marked advantage is that there is much greater accountability for an MP regarding his constituency than in purely proportional vote systems. The best system would either be preferential voting or a mixed where a number of representatives are elected by constituency and the rest are assigned to ensure the appropriate Parliamentary representation. That is if UKIP got 10% votes and has only 1 MP, they get assigned more MPs until they have 10% of them, etc.
Well, if you're sending representatives to the EU parliament, chances are you have to abide by EU rules. The problem isn't with PR there, but with mutton-heads who kept deciding that the best people to defend them in Europe was a party who don't even want to be in Europe at all.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
She was killed by a person with mental health issues. It had nothing to do with the vote at all. I still can't believe some people are that dishonest about the situation.
Not only can you not possibly prove that, you'll be one of the first to harp on about the motives of other killers if it suits your goals. Plank, splinter, eye?
Mega Tsunami
Emperor
Another one of those things forced upon us unnecessarily. If fptp has worked well enough for us for hundreds of years – long before the EU was even thought of - why should we be forced to change?
Oh I know – Big Brother EU knows best.
Except we all know they don’t.
Chalk up another good reason for leaving – the EU forcing a form of democracy on us despite our wishes not to have it.
Well her husband does not blame Brexit, if that helps….
The Guardian
The widower of former MP Jo Cox, who was stabbed to death in her constituency days before the EU referendum, said he did not believe her murder was linked to the Brexit vote.
<>
Cox said he felt the EU referendum had resulted in heightened tension in the UK but that he did not believe the vote was linked to the death of his wife on 16 June.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...iticians-to-reclaim-patriotism-from-far-right
I think that you've have to define "well enough". The only thing it does well to marginalise minor parties, which is a good thing when those parties are extremists and a bad thing when they're not.
Well, it's good that Mr Cox doesn't blame Brexit for the situation, but I was mainly talking about the Daily Fail's shameless front page yesterday. Are you going to tell me that you approve of such rhetoric?
Well, it's good that Mr Cox doesn't blame Brexit for the situation, but I was mainly talking about the Daily Fail's shameless front page yesterday. Are you going to tell me that you approve of such rhetoric?
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
I doubt people voted UKIP because they don't like PR
^Getting 10% of the overall vote means a party is not really "minor", unless it is a system like the UK's where literally only two parties can ever hope to win an election.
I agree that ukip is a clown party. This doesn't excuse having a system where they can get 10% of the vote and have only 1 mp in the 600 mps of your parliament...
I agree that ukip is a clown party. This doesn't excuse having a system where they can get 10% of the vote and have only 1 mp in the 600 mps of your parliament...
Mega Tsunami
Emperor
No, of course not, it was an over-reaction to a general feeling that the establishment is trying to derail Brexit.
The Mail however maintains those judges didn’t help themselves by slow hand clapping Gove, the then Lord Chancellor, just after the vote (no matter how much Gove deserved it, judges should not get political at all. A stony silence should suffice.).
It was still wrong of he Mail though…
Like I said before, they would not have got anything like 10% of the vote if it wasn’t for PR. It was PR that snowballed them into the limelight.
Under fptp there would have been no UKIP MEPs. No party political broadcasts etc etc
They would just have been another BNP if the EU hadn’t forced us to use PR.
The EU decided how to organize a vote for the EU parliament, and somehow that's bad ? Wut ? Local elections can have different voting systems from national elections who can have different voting systems from pan-national elections. The most important part is that the voting system for one assembly is the same for all the people who vote for this assembly.
Cheetah
Deity
I don't think it's very democratic nor moral to advocate for a system which intentionally blocks a significant minority of people from having power, simply because one doesn't like what those people think...
- Status
Similar threads
