Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[HAND]

The chaos in Islamist Erdoğan's Turkey is another headache for the remain campaign:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-turkey-future-dependable-eu-partner-refugees

 

[EnglishEdward]

That's completely ridiculous, on two point :

- Saying a law is not better than another because it's not enforced is just absurd. The enforcement is not dependant on the law, that's the whole point of the separation of powers.

If you take a narrow definition for "law" that is indeed correct.

I am assuming a wider definition in that a law is a "rule enforced by significant sanctions". And if it is not enforced, then it is in my perspective a poor law.

- If the law is not enforced in the UK, guess who is responsible ? The same people who constantly blame the EU for not being democratic and not respecting the countries and forcing them do what they don't want, are now blaming it for laws being not enforced ? Make up your mind.

I am not blaming the EU for UK government inaction.

I find some of the interpretations of EU law perverse, but that is my view often
more to do with the business people, bureaucrats and judges than the EU laws themselves.

My scepticism about the role of EU law in the UK is more in the form that it is yet another
layer of law which has overheads and creates confusion and opportunities for miscreants
and lawyers when it overlaps with and in part conflicts with UK Law.

 

[HAND]

'Project Fear' used to be a reference to the Scottish referendum. Either way, it's a stupid name and nothing is served by demonising one side of the argument.

That's just politics though, isn't it? A fair number of Remain supporters love language like "rabid nationalists", "xenophobes", "Little Englanders" when referring to the Leave campaign supporters.

All hyperbolic and unfair terms which slip into the argument at some point.

 

[Flying Pig]

That's not referring to the Leave campaign as a whole - only the part of it which are, well, rabid nationalists.

 

[Agent327]

The chaos in Islamist Erdoğan's Turkey is another headache for the remain campaign

I'm not sure why as Turkey isn't in the EU.

My scepticism about the role of EU law in the UK is more in the form that it is yet another
layer of law which has overheads and creates confusion and opportunities for miscreants
and lawyers when it overlaps with and in part conflicts with UK Law.

Miscreants and lawyers? I don't know about miscreants, but lawyers have to make a living too. I am wondering what makes the UK so 'special' it has more problems than other EU countries in dealing with this 'layer of law'. I'm sure you are aware that Parliament also oftentimes deals with issues a normal person wouldn't think twice about. This will hardly end with the UK leaving the EU. Nor will the issue of unsanctioned laws. (A law may become so outdated that enforcing it is no longer worthwhile. I'm sure every country has such laws, especially if there's no political consensus on how to change or if to abolish such a law.).

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure why as Turkey isn't in the EU..

But it would like to be. And maybe in the EU quite soon. (I'm the proud owner of a Turkish-made Beko fridge-freezer, btw. )

The remain campaign has to take the long view on EU membership, and if Turkey's majority Muslim population has the right of UK residency (which they would if Turkey joins) then that's just fuel on the fire for the "Let's leave" side, notorious Islamophobes that they are. Imagine that! 77 million Turkish muslims crowded into England.

 

[AdrienIer]

Turkey entering the EU was a possibility a few years back before Erdogan went completely nuts. Now there's not a chance.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Turkey entering the EU was a possibility a few years back before Erdogan went completely nuts. Now there's not a chance.

Which is why Turkey are asking for:

"◾Faster access to visa-free travel in most of the EU for Turkish citizens "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35755331

 

[EnglishEdward]

Miscreants and lawyers?

The "and" implies the miscreants and lawyers are not necessarily the same.

 

[Lillefix]

Which is why Turkey are asking for:

"◾Faster access to visa-free travel in most of the EU for Turkish citizens "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35755331

Britain is already not a part of Schengen so I don't see what difference there would be.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Britain is already not a part of Schengen so I don't see what difference there would be.

Quite so. Difficult to see why France would agree to help
the Iron Chancellor when the UK has already opted out.

 

[Arakhor]

Politics is about lots of things, not just twee national pride.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But it would like to be. And maybe in the EU quite soon. (I'm the proud owner of a Turkish-made Beko fridge-freezer, btw. )

The remain campaign has to take the long view on EU membership, and if Turkey's majority Muslim population has the right of UK residency (which they would if Turkey joins) then that's just fuel on the fire for the "Let's leave" side, notorious Islamophobes that they are. Imagine that! 77 million Turkish muslims crowded into England.

Let's leave" side NOT EQUAL notorious Islamophobes

Indeed I rather suspect that many UK Muslims will in fact
vote for leaving the EU (the white people' club).

Many of them are not exactly overjoyed with having
unexplained refusals, long delays and paying through
the nose for visas for relative to come to the UK to
visit them while being fully aware that all the Poles,
Rumanians and Bulgarians need do is buy a bus ticket.

Still we shall see.

 

[Lillefix]

Let's leave" side NOT EQUAL notorious Islamophobes

Indeed I rather suspect that many UK Muslims will in fact
vote for leaving the EU (the white people' club).

Many of them are not exactly overjoyed with having
unexplained refusals, long delays and paying through
the nose for visas for relative to come to the UK to
visit them while being fully aware that all the Poles,
Rumanians and Bulgarians need do is buy a bus ticket.

Still we shall see.

If we can't have these perks, then the Poles shouldn't either.

That's a petty approach.

 

[Borachio]

Turkey entering the EU was a possibility a few years back before Erdogan went completely nuts. Now there's not a chance.

But Turkey has the EU over a barrel on the migrant issue.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But Turkey has the EU over a barrel on the migrant issue.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. And bluffs often get called.

 

[Borachio]

There's such a lot at stake, though. Europe really needs Turkey to retain (for want of a better word) Syrian refugees on its soil. And I think it will be willing to pay quite a high price for it.

But quite possibly not immediate EU membership, come to think of it, since that would mean automatic rights of Syrian refugees to travel pretty freely in Europe. Or something.

 

[EnglishEdward]

If we can't have these perks, then the Poles shouldn't either.

That's a petty approach.

The competition for jobs between the British born children of naturalised non
white immigrants and the nationals of eastern Europeans in the UK is serious.

And people vote for their perceived economic interests.


My points here are that one should not assume that the leavers are all old
white Islamophobes etc.

 

[EnglishEdward]

There's such a lot at stake, though. Europe really needs Turkey to retain (for want of a better word) Syrian refugees on its soil. And I think it will be willing to pay quite a high price for it.

But quite possibly not immediate EU membership, come to think of it, since that would mean automatic rights of Syrian refugees to travel pretty freely in Europe. Or something.

But if the Syrian refugees are still in Turkey in ten years time and Turkey is in the EU, then Turkey would have a strong motivation to give them Turkish nationality so they could travel as Turks to other EU countries thereby relieving Turkey of hosting their guests. This would mean that the other EU countries would have paid money to keep them out but end up still receiving them which would be a reason for them not to let Turkey in the EU which would itself be a reason for Turkey not to proceed with the deal.

I remember that in the days of the Ottoman Empire (prior to 1918); Syria was part of that Empire and so they shared the same citizenship.

But many of the migrants are not from Syria.

All gets horribly complicated I think.

 

[Arakhor]

Many of them are not exactly overjoyed with having
unexplained refusals, long delays and paying through the nose for visas for relative to come to the UK to visit them while being fully aware that all the Poles, Rumanians and Bulgarians need do is buy a bus ticket.

Come on. You know that's not true and that it's just the sort of fearmongering that you claim that the In campaign is doing.