Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[luiz]

I wonder when it will finally hit Brits just the extent of what they lost. I mean, all political and economic considerations aside, the EU has got to be one of the most quality of life enhancing projects in history. The ability to study, work or retire in 28 of the world's most amazing countries without having to worry about visas, permits, and all the usual nonsense is worth an incalculable amount.

There are over 5 million Britons living abroad, most of them in Europe (1 million in Spain and France alone). I wonder how they're feeling about this dumbass decision of their countrymen.

 

[Kyriakos]

^British people don't tend to retire in most of those countries. There are a few chosen countries, and virtually more than half are non-starters.

I think the best thing to do now is to get rid of some of the chaos by announcing preparation to fire article 50 (not just yet, but they could have a plan for a couple of months etc), and preparation to allow for a referendum in Scotland in 1-2 years. Cause imo by that time things will be a lot less chaotic/uncertain for Britain, while now the tone is gloomy, given no one steps up to take leadership.

Anyway, i sincerely hope for the best for the british posters here...

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think your use of the word Nation tells us that Scotland and NI should and can draw the line at their borders and remain with the EU
or do you think that when a nation has a referenda it should be ignored and not taken seriously

The nation in question was the UK. Just like it is for a general election. You could define the city of London as a nation if you like just to be argumentative, but you know that that's not what I meant when I used the word.

 

[Verbose]

The nation in question was the UK. Just like it is for a general election. You could define the city of London as a nation if you like just to be argumentative, but you know that that's not what I meant when I used the word.

It IS the "United Kingdom", right? Somehow it should be obvious what the constituent parts are, even at this late date in its history. London clearly is not one of them. Scotland is though.

 

[luiz]

^British people don't tend to retire in most of those countries. There are a few chosen countries, and virtually more than half are non-starters.

I think the best thing to do now is to get rid of some of the chaos by announcing preparation to fire article 50 (not just yet, but they could have a plan for a couple of months etc), and preparation to allow for a referendum in Scotland in 1-2 years. Cause imo by that time things will be a lot less chaotic/uncertain for Britain, while now the tone is gloomy, given no one steps up to take leadership.

Anyway, i sincerely hope for the best for the british posters here...

Of course not a lot of people want to retire in Sweden, but it's still a good place for study or work. And Britons retire by the millions in Spain, Portugal, France, Greece, Italy and others. And they also work as expatriates in Germany, France, the Nordics, Benelux and etc, and study all over the place.

They lost a lot. Both in financial and non-tangible terms. The nation that will emerge will be poorer, for sure, but also more provincial and offering far less exciting prospects for its citizens. It's a gigantic backwards step.

 

[Kyriakos]

There are english people here, but not so many to retire anymore (pre 2008 it was different). Most english and other Uk citizens here are either students or working (eg in foreign language schools).
There are a few street musicians as well ( ).

And i was talking about countries like Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and similar, which virtually have no british people retiring there, and i suppose very few for other reasons as well. Most british in the EU likely are in Spain/France, yes.

 

[Old Hippy]

The nation in question was the UK. Just like it is for a general election. You could define the city of London as a nation if you like just to be argumentative, but you know that that's not what I meant when I used the word.

I know you did not mean it, but the Scottish seam to have a different take than you, and voted differently. They have made clear their National views on the matter. England and Wales can get their governments to go ahead and make laws and new treaties for themselves, Scotland has clearly said leave us out of it and they said it through your non binding English referendum

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It IS the "United Kingdom", right? Somehow it should be obvious what the constituent parts are, even at this late date in its history. London clearly is not one of them. Scotland is though.

The key word being "United". A union which was reaffirmed (at least as for as Scotland is concerned) less than 2 years ago let's not forget. The point is that it was a national referendum, as in the whole of the UK took part, to decide the future of the UK. Just because some individual regions of the UK are also classed as "nations" doesn't mean it's fair or right that they demand to be exempt from the results and have their own way, anymore than it makes it fair or right for London to do that or my neighbour to do that. When we have a general election the whole nation is then under the auspices of the elected government. The individual constituencies that voted differently don't get the right to break away and govern themselves.

I'm not saying there is no argument to CONSIDER such a thing, but to talk about it as if it's self-evidently the correct path to take is in opposition to common sense.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I know you did not mean it, but the Scottish seam to have a different take than you, and voted differently. They have made clear their National views on the matter. England and Wales can get their governments to go ahead and make laws and new treaties for themselves, Scotland has clearly said leave us out of it and they said it through your non binding English referendum

You can spin it however you like, but you're still talking about a sub-section of a nation taking part in a national referendum and then wanting to break away when they don't get what they want. If every sub-section did that every time we have an election then we'd be an island of 300+ tiny city states by now and I'd have to cross 2 borders just driving to work.

And it was a UK referendum, not an English one, as you well know.

Perhaps we should allow "old people" to break off as a separate state as well?

 

[Atticus]

Couldn't you then as well say that the whole EU should have got to vote on Brexit?

 

[Kyriakos]

Last week tonight (Jon Oliver), show on youtube (it has usually many 'curse words', so i'd rather not post a link, but you can find the 5+5 min segment on youtube)... :/

 

[luiz]

The key word being "United". A union which was reaffirmed (at least as for as Scotland is concerned) less than 2 years ago let's not forget. The point is that it was a national referendum, as in the whole of the UK took part, to decide the future of the UK. Just because some individual regions of the UK are also classed as "nations" doesn't mean it's fair or right that they demand to be exempt from the results and have their own way, anymore than it makes it fair or right for London to do that or my neighbour to do that. When we have a general election the whole nation is then under the auspices of the elected government. The individual constituencies that voted differently don't get the right to break away and govern themselves.

I'm not saying there is no argument to CONSIDER such a thing, but to talk about it as if it's self-evidently the correct path to take is in opposition to common sense.

I generally agree with this point, but the problem is that one of the reasons Scots voted against independence was their unsure status as EU members if they left the UK. Now it turns out the way for them to stay in the EU is by leaving the UK.

So while I am no fan of Nicola Sturgeon and know that for her anything is a pretext for calling a new referendum, because she is a childish sore loser, in this case she has a point. It's like if the UK had abandoned the Pound. One of the deciding factors changed, hence that vote is no longer reflecting the will of Scottish people given present circumstances.

And as someone who was strongly against Scottish independence last time, I do think now it's quite probable that Scotland would be better off outside the UK and inside the EU than vice-versa. They just need to time their independence right so they actually never leave the EU.

 

[Arakhor]

So while I am no fan of Nicola Sturgeon and know that for her anything is a pretext for calling a new referendum, because she is a childish sore loser, in this case she has a point. It's like if the UK had abandoned the Pound. One of the deciding factors changed, hence that vote is no longer reflecting the will of Scottish people given present circumstances.

That's my viewpoint on it too. I don't even want to see the Union broken (far from it), but this is the perfect opportunity to see it happen.

 

[Akka]

It would be understandable if 100% (or 90%, or even 80%) of the olds who grew up in the post war-period (although it's not clear exactly how long that period was) voted to leave, and were the only people who voted to leave. But given that the actually demographic breakdown shows that that is at best a massive oversimplification, and at worst an outright lie, it's not really understandable.

It's a simplification, obviously (what stat isn't ?), but not especially "over". It's no more an "oversimplification" than saying "Scotland wanted to stay in the EU".

I mean it would be just as understandable for older voters to criticise the 18 year old voters for being barely out of school, wet behind the ears simpletons who know nothing about the real world. For example.

And it isn't ? I mean, it's hardly something that is rare, and you don't even have to wait for someone to be 60 to hear such opinion - it starts to appear when people turn 30, even 25.

The key word being "United". A union which was reaffirmed (at least as for as Scotland is concerned) less than 2 years ago let's not forget. The point is that it was a national referendum, as in the whole of the UK took part, to decide the future of the UK. Just because some individual regions of the UK are also classed as "nations" doesn't mean it's fair or right that they demand to be exempt from the results and have their own way, anymore than it makes it fair or right for London to do that or my neighbour to do that.

I usually would agree about that (I'm no friend of secessions in general).

But then, the UK was so often doing just the same in the European UNION, that they lost all sympathy from me about it. If they get a good dose of their own medecine, I won't feel sorry.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Couldn't you then as well say that the whole EU should have got to vote on Brexit?

No, because I didn't say that the English should have got a vote on Scottish independence.

The equivalent would actually be the UK voting to remain in the EU for as long as things went its way, and then demanding another referendum the first time the EU as a whole voted for a policy they didn't like. Which I'm sure everyone would view a lot less charitably than Scotland essentially doing the same thing now.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Worth noting that Scotland can be vetoed by Spain (didn't Spain's PM say that in so many words multiple times already?-- 'break-away republic' etc).

Not that it is the main issue, but it is in the realm of fantasy that Scotland will surely be in the EU even if they leave UK tomorrow.

 

[Verbose]

The key word being "United". A union which was reaffirmed (at least as for as Scotland is concerned) less than 2 years ago let's not forget.

Yes, but as long as it is "united" it is by definition a unity made up of parts.

There have been united kingdoms that have stopped being united kingdoms and geled into nation states over time, but the UK clearly isn't one of those.

 

[AdrienIer]

No, because I didn't say that the English should have got a vote on Scottish independence.

The equivalent would actually be the UK voting to remain in the EU for as long as things went its way, and then demanding another referendum the first time the EU as a whole voted for a policy they didn't like. Which I'm sure everyone would view a lot less charitably than Scotland essentially doing the same thing now.

No the equivalent would be if the UK had voted to stay and 6 months from now the EU decides that they're cancelling the rebate. The UK would have every reason to want a second referendum, as there has been a major change in their relationship.

 

[Akka]

No, because I didn't say that the English should have got a vote on Scottish independence.

The equivalent would actually be the UK voting to remain in the EU for as long as things went its way, and then demanding another referendum the first time the EU as a whole voted for a policy they didn't like. Which I'm sure everyone would view a lot less charitably than Scotland essentially doing the same thing now.

Wait, isn't it exactly what the UK has always done from the very beginning ?

 

[Old Hippy]

You can spin it however you like, but you're still talking about a sub-section of a nation taking part in a national referendum and then wanting to break away when they don't get what they want. If every sub-section did that every time we have an election then we'd be an island of 300+ tiny city states by now and I'd have to cross 2 borders just driving to work.

And it was a UK referendum, not an English one, as you well know.

Scotland competes on the world stage in sports as Scotland and will do so at Rio often against England so however you spin it Scotland is more than a sub-section of a nation, as accepted acknowledged by England's actions. it is a Nation in its own right that has clearly said it does not wish to be ruled by Westminster red tape but by EU red tape.
any other choice would take away the legitimacy of the UK result for its own independence day
but still should have their referendum before Westminster does any bargaining with the EU about Scotland's future
you never know the might even stay


edit: make that the commonwealth games where England competes against Scotland as separate nations