Is Britain about to leave the EU?

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Couldn't you then as well say that the whole EU should have got to vote on Brexit?
I thought you wanted the Remainers to have a chance…?
^Worth noting that Scotland can be vetoed by Spain (didn't Spain's PM say that in so many words multiple times already?-- 'break-away republic' etc).
Spain's knee-jerk reaction has been to ask for the return of Gibraltar once again. It might just have had something to do with their elections, as a surge of nationalism always tends to help the sitting misgovernment.
Kyriakos said:
Not that it is the main issue, but it is in the realm of fantasy that Scotland will surely be in the EU even if they leave UK tomorrow.
A number of interim measures could be taken to smooth over transition, with Scotland promising to enact certain key measures and so on. I just hope the Scottish government aren't stupid enough to join the Eurozone if they do try to split from the UK and (re-)join the EU.
 
And I'm just leaving this out here, originally from the Graun's comments section:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.​
Incidentally, as I keep stressing, Parliament can't be told to do anything. It was said by Lord Lester, QC live on Hardtalk on the Beeb about a month ago. Everything is ‘advisory’ to Parliament. Online searches on what the EU actually is have surged after the referendum. People don't know what it is. Parliament can even choose to enact its own laws. The Justice Lords (now the Supreme Court) cannot strike down laws. It is shocking to see how little people know about how they are governed. But, of course, watching Hardtalk instead of water-skiing budgerigars is for chumps who don't want to take their country back.
 
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away.
I'd really like for the EU to say that such official commitment means that the article 50 is considered activated since 23rd june.
Really.
I have the utmost distaste for people who so obviously renounce their pledges, especially when they do it like that because they can't be bothered to take their responsabilities.
 
Takhi, Britain is already de facto outside the Eu. Let alone that i am not sure how anyone (let alone newspapers? ehm...) can make a mockery out of a public vote specifically saying the majority of people in the Uk decided to leave the Eu, and say that it should just not mean anything. There is no return from such a charade.

I think this was the far worst possible development, though. Hugely worse than anything moderately sane, and imo the best thing would have been to allow Corbyn to form a group of MPs serious enough to start negotiations on leaving the Eu.

Now, obviously Akka is in his own pro-Eu bubble, but he is utterly right to note that the last thing even this Eu needs is for a popular vote to be annulled, when it came to exiting the Eu. It spells out that 'what the people vote does not matter at all, deal with it, and you can't vote to exit either, so deal with it again', and that isn't their open strategy, regardless of also being a de facto reality.

The issue is not Boris, Cameron and other clowns. It is far more important.
 
Kyriakos said:
The issue is not Boris, Cameron and other clowns. It is far more important.

You haven't remotely succeeded in countering the arguments laid out there. The issue is precisely Boris, Cameron, and other clowns because one of the clowns is going to have to take responsibility for activating article 50...and it may well be that none of the clowns will want to do that.
 
The point of anybody here talking about anything, seeing as how none of our opinions matter or will affect anything anyway.
Again, you tell me.

I am curious as to why so many people see Britain wanting to leave the EU as symptomatic of right-wing, xenophobic, hateful bigotry. And yet somehow Scotland wanting to leave the UK, for essentially exactly the same reasons, is always talked about as if it's some forward-thinking, left-wing, progressive wonderfulness. It's almost as if... gasp... everyone hates England or something. Such that wishing to be free of England is automatically a good thing, whereas England* wanting to be free of any other influence is automatically a bad thing because, obviously, England left to its own devices will be a disgusting tyranny.

(*and yes I know this is Britain, not England, but it's how everyone's viewing it isn't it)
Everyone hates you? Don't be ridiculous. In case you haven't noticed, "Leave" was heavily based on fear of immigrants--hence the infamous billboard. Scotland's secession movement is about no longer being forced to remain in a union that overrules their wishes and which is dragging itself down into economic harm out of a fear of immigrants.

But, you know, going by your logic, you probably just complain about Scotland all the time because you hate Scotland.
 
Newspapers are, however, starting to inform their readers about just what it was that they made them vote for:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-mail-has-explained-what-brexit-means-and-its-readers-seem-shocked--Z1772TI4aNW

The Daily Mail said:
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http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-sun-has-also-got-around-to-telling-its-readers-what-brexit-will-mean-and-they-are-not-happy--WySvafrAVZ

The Sun said:
1. Inflation is likely to rise

2. The cost of an average family holiday will rise

3. Accommodation abroad will cost more

4. Beer prices will go up

5. EU caps on international calls will no longer apply, so it’ll cost much more to make calls in Europe

6. Unemployment will rise and wages will fall by up to four per cent

7. Mortgages prices will rise

8. Rates of taxation will increase

9. Benefit payments may be slashed

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I feel so much schadenfreude from this I can hardly describe it...
 
I assume it is obvious that as soon as the UK were to invoke article 50, then their destiny is entirely in the hands of the EU, with little the UK can do to save themselves.

24 months after being invoked the process is at an end, and the UK is out, with no access to the single market (except via WTO tariffs), and no passport for their financial services.

OK, the 24 months can be extended, but only if the EU agrees.

If the EU wants to play hardball, (and who could possibly blame them for this?) then the UK is a screwed, powerless, supplicant.

The more time the markets have to consider this, and probably the EU already knows, the more obvious it will be.

If the boot was on the other foot, say France had left, and wants to negotiate continuance of the CAP for their farmers, how keen would the UK be to accommodate them ?

Utter nightmare...
 
^ Far be it from me to claim that what the public votes should matter :) It is only 'advisory' to what a group of well-paid morons do.

*shrug* the argument about whether the public's votes should matter is quite different to the argument that they will.

Article 50 doesn't say anyone except the member state wishing to withdraw can activate it.
So if the UK never actually activates article 50 then the vote will not have mattered...and it will be the fault of the UK's politicians, not the EU itself. You can't blame the EU for being undemocratic when the problem is (or rather, would be) Boris and co lacking the balls to follow through.
 
Oh, what a wonderful headline:
Brexit live: Cameron accepts there may be a case for an early election

(updated 20-odd minutes ago)

^That is good. Although the honest thing to do would be to hold their party election in a month and be done with it.

And i do really hope there is no ludicrousness of some candidate there speaking of cancelling the vote :D "We are FOR the people, so we ask you PEOPLE to vote us in, so that we can CANCEL your previous vote, cause you were MISLED then, but will be CORRECT upon voting us in" etc.

@Lexicus: The Uk is already not having its previous rights in the Eu, so staying means paying the same and having nothing in return other than being presented as a beat dog (to put it as Stannis would). Let alone the markets are full of the usual cliques which will keep pressuring the Uk every step of the way. So saying "we are in the Brexit stage, but it is not yet triggered officially" is not a serious policy. Look at what happened in a few days of the uncertainty. Months won't improve it.

Also it is of note that Juncker already said a few hours after the vote, that the deal offered to Cameron is now cancelled for ever. So it is not like the pros of a BreStay ( :) ) would be the same either as those presented in the referendum.

(then again, it is indeed not for us in the thread to say what will happen, and on my part i am just taking part in the discussion. I hope the british posters and others there are going to be ok...)
 
And I'm just leaving this out here, originally from the Graun's comments section:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.​
Incidentally, as I keep stressing, Parliament can't be told to do anything. It was said by Lord Lester, QC live on Hardtalk on the Beeb about a month ago. Everything is ‘advisory’ to Parliament. Online searches on what the EU actually is have surged after the referendum. People don't know what it is. Parliament can even choose to enact its own laws. The Justice Lords (now the Supreme Court) cannot strike down laws. It is shocking to see how little people know about how they are governed. But, of course, watching Hardtalk instead of water-skiing budgerigars is for chumps who don't want to take their country back.
If all that is true, good luck to you all. It is a mess. Should I feel sorry for any of the UK politicians?
 
Birdjaguar said:
If all that is true, good luck to you all. It is a mess. Should I feel sorry for any of the UK politicians?

No. 5ch
 
Oh, you should. They are a pathetic bunch, mostly. Feeling sorry for them is not the same as letting them remain in office or in politics. They should retire. All of them.
 
Everyone hates you? Don't be ridiculous. In case you haven't noticed, "Leave" was heavily based on fear of immigrants--hence the infamous billboard. Scotland's secession movement is about no longer being forced to remain in a union that overrules their wishes and which is dragging itself down into economic harm out of a fear of immigrants.

You can't deny that this was a HUGE part of the reason for the UK voting to leave the EU. Your post is pretty much an example of exactly the attitude I was talking about.
 
You can't blame the EU for being undemocratic when the problem is (or rather, would be) Boris and co lacking the balls to follow through.
Wanna bet they can ?
You haven't been reading the rabid anti-EU buffoon if you imagine that irrelevant things like facts can even slow them down if they want to blame EU for something.
You can't deny that this was a HUGE part of the reason for the UK voting to leave the EU.
Being part of a union that overrule their wishes ? From THE country which constantly asked (and, worse, obtained) special treatments ?
Wow.
 
I feel so much schadenfreude from this I can hardly describe it...

Why? If your argument is that people were lied to and manipulated into making the wrong decision, why on earth would you derive any pleasure at seeing them then suffer unless you were just a terrible person?
 
Being part of a union that overrule their wishes ? From THE country which constantly asked (and, worse, obtained) special treatments ?
Wow.

Well then how can you be annoyed that the people of that country voted to stop doing that? In fact does that not now make the Scottish the bad guys for wanting to continue that arrangement?
 
That is a bit optimistic - surely they won't necessarily be thinking of what is relevant or best for Britain but what is relevant or best for the EU.

Yes indeed, the EU diplomats will be thinking of what is relevant or best for the EU.

If we can find out that, one can reverse engineer the UK position.

And the hard nosed EU diplomats cannot counter the UK plan, because
we have thought about that and spoiled that by not having one.

I am aware that this seems quite ridiculous, but I've attended meetings like this.
 
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